Buce 02 - The Son's Of Ghengis Khan

[Othniel]

These are just some thoughts for discussion. I'm still not convinced that this is the way to look at the situation but [...........] I think we should wait on war with Mao until it is convenient but if the situation develops without giving us the is, we make peace with Cathy and then buy her in.

My thoughts:

The War Happiness scheme is moot because the we don't have the embassy with Russia. Thus, I favor signing peace with Cathy, then making the embassy with her, then buying her in on an alliance against Mao.

Side note: Actually, if we don't think we'll kill Mao in one fell swoop but will need to oscillate the wars a couple more times, let's also make an embassy with Mao before we attack him (if we haven't already made the embassy). Then, we can do the War Happiness scheme a couple of times by playing off Mao and Cathy against each other through peace deals. I think the continual war happiness will offset the cost of the embassies.

Again, though, that is moot for the present until we get embassies established. So, I favor just signing peace with Cathy and getting Mao out of the way. I really think Mao is the big threat with the iron and I'd like to put a serious hurt on him.

BTW, I think we have to boot Mao if he ventures in our territory. I thought that was part of the defiant rules, but maybe I'm recollecting wrongly...

EDIT: I just checked. Our rules don't make us boot, but I definitely think we should boot Mao. Perhaps anger him with unreasonable demands first , but let's get him to declare on us for some war .

 

[Elephantium]

Given the analysis by the rest of the team, I'm in full agreement that it's time for Mao

 

[Bucephalus]

This is what I have in mind; with the Sword Army and some support, I believe we are able to push as far as the choke, removing Paoting along the way (for Slaves), and razing and replacing Macau. The Spear Army can once again be employed on a pillaging mission, cutting off the Iron, and ultimately cutting off Beijing from any further trades. Once we have them behind the choke, we will have a big strategic advantage, and can remove anything our side at our leisure. The blue dots represent suggested city sites, the red dot indicating a possible FP location.

I think it's a delicate balancing act with Cathy; on the one hand, an alliance would be welcome, but with her reeling as she is, we stand to make an extra tech with a few more 'kills'. And not having an alliance will not necessarily mean that she will make peace with Mao.

I'm definitely of the opinion that Mao is the bigger potential threat.

I won't be playing until Monday, so if anyone has any comments/input, there is plenty of time; none of this is a fait accompli but a strategy is required, so unless anyone contributes something better, I will go with what we have.

Spoiler :

 

[Elephantium]

Looks good, but I'd like to see us claim the Spices north of Ulaanbaatar. The boost they will give to our economy will allow us to crank out swords and horses a bit faster - and given that we're already facing Longbows, I think that the extra military will come in really handy.

 

[Bucephalus]

Looks good, but I'd like to see us claim the Spices north of Ulaanbaatar. The boost they will give to our economy will allow us to crank out swords and horses a bit faster - and given that we're already facing Longbows, I think that the extra military will come in really handy.

I agree that those Spices are a high priority, IMO once we've secured the chokepoint.

LB's are just leader fodder; however, a relitively quick peace with Cathy is indicated if we are not to fall too far behind in tech.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, I'm playing now, but it may be tomorrow before I post; I'm changing my ISP, and I'm not sure what time my current provider will cut me off.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, after a slight delay, here we go....

Start with a little creative mm; I've counted the shields held between Ta-Tu & Kazan, and in theory it should be possible to get them making ten shields each.....and it is. With KK making 15 spt, we're getting better than a Sword per turn, Empire-wide.

Wake Sword Army, and send to Kazan; ditto several Swords, Cats.
Wake Spear Army, and move in to position to pillage the road between Tientsin & Nanking.

IBT:

China founds new town on Iron to the North;
See first first Chinese Pike.

70 AD:

Continue to marshall forces at Kazan;
Curragh makes it to new continent (Persian waters);
Spear Army pillages road between Nanking & Tientsin (Mao still has Iron);
Begin to road to Spices, in readiness for the next Settler.
Looks like we just lost War Happiness - raise the slider.

90 AD:

There are Pikes in Paotang, so I'm going to wait one more turn for more Cats to arrive.

110 AD:

DOW China, move stack next to Paotang;
Spear Army begins to pillage;
Kill Russian Spear, and capture Settler (2 Slaves)

130 AD:

Cats do a little damage to defending Pikes, Sword Army does the rest - destroy Paotang, taking 4 Slaves.

Move Swords and Settler to Macao;

150 AD:

Kill Russian AC, Spear and 2 LB's, losing 1 Sword;
Give Cathy Peace + 12 gpt for Currency and Polytheism.;
Make Embassy in Moscow;
Meanwhile, back at Macao, Mao has sent out a Spear/Settler combo, that quickly becomes 2 more Slaves;
We meet the Ottomans.

170 AD:

Sword Army kills 2 Pikes at Macao, then it takes 2 Elite Swords to kill a damn Spear, but Macao is razed, (2 Slaves taken) and a Settler moves in to replace it;
Another Settler/Spear is taken - 2 more Slaves.

190 AD:

Edernet is founded, and we now control access to and from China;
Pillaging Army reaches Beijing;
Kill 4 Chinese Archers at Shentung.

210 AD:

I see the first Mace near Nanking, so I kill it;
Horseman reaches Hangchow (sitting on the Iron to the North), and destroys it.
Mao is already asking to talk - he will give Monarchy or any other 2 techs.

230 AD:

Assemble forces at both Shantung and Nanking;
Beijing is now completely pillaged - no Imports or Exports.

250 AD:

Destroy Chinan, losing a Sword but gaining 3 Slaves;
Capture Shantung - I figured it was exactly where I'd put a city, and the flip risk should be minimal.

260 AD:

Persia demands 26g. The Mongol people do not pay tribute - Persia declares war.

Tsesterleg is founded on the Spices, and I can drop the slider a couple of notches.
I destroy Nanking with our mighty Sword Army, taking 4 Slaves;
Chinese Archer kills an Elite Horse, but is avenged by another Elite:

Spoiler :

And now Mao is ready to sell his soul for Peace:

Spoiler :

He will also give Literature, but it has no value to us at all.

Scene of recent operations:

Spoiler :

SAVE

 

[Othniel]

Sounds like some excellent progress, Buce, especially with grabbing all those slaves! I'll take a look at the save before making any further comments...

BTW, interesting graphics pack you've got going.

 

[Elephantium]

What's the roster at this point? I've lost track because of the player changes.

 

[Bucephalus]

What's the roster at this point? I've lost track because of the player changes.

Buce - Just played
CivA - Up
Othniel - On deck
Tusker -
Phaedo -

 

[Bucephalus]

Sounds like some excellent progress, Buce, especially with grabbing all those slaves! I'll take a look at the save before making any further comments...

Thanks.

BTW, interesting graphics pack you've got going.

Yeah, it's a compilation of various bits and bobs from the graphics forum; I could let you have the files, if you like.

 

[Bucephalus]

The deal on the table is clearly the best that we can get, and I recommend that we take it; Cathy has units in our territory, and is furious, so I'm certain she will DOW if booted, saving our gpt payments in the process.

We have units in place to deal with any immediate incursions, and I've begun to assemble an invasion force at Sugar Shack. This can be supplemented with both Sword Armies (I haven't filled the new Army yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me). If we put together a stack of Cats and a few Swords too, I see no reason to prevent us marching on the Russian core, wrecking cities for Slaves and techs.

We are behind on military techs (I've seen a Persian Musket) but I don't think that matters ATM, at least. With a couple of Armies, superior generalship, and an overwhelming number of cheap Swords, we will roll over Cathy as easily as we did Mao.

I'm figuring that we need to get to Chivalry only, in order to take this continent.

 

[Bucephalus]

Hello...... is there anybody out there?

 

[Othniel]

Howdy!

The peace deal sounds good. Oscillating the wars to pick up techs seems like the best way for us to catch up. I'm actually surprised Mao is offering that much; the AI in v. 1.22 C3C seem to think that extorting even 1 tech is like your asking them for their birthright.

Do we have an embassy with Mao? If so, doing the MA with him against Cathy for future war happiness would be the thing to do now. Boot Cathy first, then sign the peace with Mao.

 

[Bucephalus]

Howdy!

The peace deal sounds good. Oscillating the wars to pick up techs seems like the best way for us to catch up. I'm actually surprised Mao is offering that much; the AI in v. 1.22 C3C seem to think that extorting even 1 tech is like your asking them for their birthright.

Well, razing half-a-dozen cities tends to concentrate their minds a little, and the kill ratio was about 30-3.

Do we have an embassy with Mao?

No.

 

[Othniel]

Well, razing half-a-dozen cities tends to concentrate their minds a little, and the kill ratio was about 30-3.

True.

 

[Phaedo]

Sounds like you had a fun set Buce! The deal in the pic seems good and we should put the hurt on Cathy so she doesn't think we only wage paper wars. I haven't looked at the save but I'll get to it later today and post.

 

[Bucephalus]

CivA appears to be AWOL, so if we don't hear today I'm going to declare a skip.

That will put Othniel up.

 

[Phaedo]

I've just had a look. I don't have much to add other than that there seems to be another Chinese settler pair that could be taken before we make the peace deal.

I'm all for a war with Cathy. The continent is filling up with other Civs, which is nice. Do we even care about getting the SoZ at this point? With 2 sword armies we could probably gut her core and possibly take her out depending on what else happens. Do we go for the core or just hurt her enough to claim a bunch of land and then head back at Mao?

 

[Bucephalus]

I would suggest doing whatever causes most pain - right now, Mao and Cathy are doing all our research for us.

Cathy has some nice satellite cities that yearn to become Mongol.

Edit: That said, I'd like to see Cathy's core seriously disrupted before she gets to trade for Iron.