CivActuary
Warlord
Definitely do it for IW and with gpt instead of just gold. I take it we do not have enough gpt for both?
Buce 02 - The Son's Of Ghengis Khan
- Thread starter Bucephalus
- Start date
Phaedo
Emperor
No we can get IW from China for 14gpt or 13gtp plus some hard cash.
Phaedo
Emperor
Set Goals: Get the war machine up as running as much as I can,
Mid Term: Push back China, continue to colonize the South and make as many contacts as we can.
1250BC T0
Have a look, drop the slider to 10% and hire some taxmen (+14gpt).
Pause for some clarification.
Make the IW deal with China for 14gpt. Boot him and he declares. The WH allows us to keep the slider at 10% and put the citizens back to work.
The closest iron is N of Tatung and there is another unclaimed source on the coast way up N of Kara. It'll be a bow war for a while.
Move the stack of 3 archers to the hill N of Kazan.
We are now at +11gpt with the same 127g in the bank.
Pause to re-read the game rules.
So it seems that our AltW condition is triggered by the 5th city rather than the this war. Of course we need a 5th city to claim the iron (unless we get a slave and use it to found a colony). There is a good chance that I will not get that 5th city planted this set. Even if I do, there are a number of options so I'm going to post this pre-set turn and let you all discuss it as I play my set.
Mid Term: Push back China, continue to colonize the South and make as many contacts as we can.
1250BC T0
Have a look, drop the slider to 10% and hire some taxmen (+14gpt).
Pause for some clarification.
Make the IW deal with China for 14gpt. Boot him and he declares. The WH allows us to keep the slider at 10% and put the citizens back to work.
The closest iron is N of Tatung and there is another unclaimed source on the coast way up N of Kara. It'll be a bow war for a while.
Move the stack of 3 archers to the hill N of Kazan.
We are now at +11gpt with the same 127g in the bank.
Pause to re-read the game rules.
So it seems that our AltW condition is triggered by the 5th city rather than the this war. Of course we need a 5th city to claim the iron (unless we get a slave and use it to found a colony). There is a good chance that I will not get that 5th city planted this set. Even if I do, there are a number of options so I'm going to post this pre-set turn and let you all discuss it as I play my set.
Spoiler :
Phaedo
Emperor
It's Turn 9, and the settler is in Kaz. I'm going to pause here and finish it in the morning. I think the count is (9-3) but there will be more losses this turn as I am facing a spear and sword. No cities yet but there ought to be a stack of 10 fully healed archers with 3 elites to have a go at Macao.
Phaedo
Emperor
Sorry, I didn't get a chance to finish it today. I will finish the last couple of turns tomorrow.
Elephantium
Trampling the AI
Is it tomorrow yet? 
Phaedo
Emperor
Sorry about that. I got distracted by a beautiful woman over the past couple of days.
Here's the log and save:
Set Goals: Get the war machine up as running as much as I can,
Mid Term: Push back China, continue to colonize the South and make as many contacts as we can.
1250BC T0
Have a look, drop the slider to 10% and hire some taxmen (+14gpt).
Pause for some clarification.
Make the IW deal with China for 14gpt. Boot him and he declares. The WH allows us to keep the slider at 10% and put the citizens back to work.
The closest iron is N of Tatung and there is another unclaimed source on the coast way up N of Kara. It'll be a bow war for a while.
Move the stack of 3 archers to the hill N of Kazan.
We are now at +11gpt with the same 127g in the bank.
Pause to re-read the game rules.
So it seems that our AltW condition is triggered by the 5th city rather than the this war. Of course we need a 5th city to claim the iron (unless we get a slave and use it to found a colony). There is a good chance that I will not get that 5th city planted this set. Even if I do, there are a number of options so I'm going to post this pre-set turn and let you all discuss it as I play my set.
IBT Russians are building the Colossus. China moves 4 rWarriors into our territory and place 2 rWariors and 2 rArchers on the hill as reinforcements.
T1 1225BC
Kill 4 archers (3-0). Decide to leave the last one as I would rather counter attack archers than defend against them (especially from a hill).
From what we can see, it doesn't look like Russia has iron but there is a source on the southern sub-continent near the desert incense, so I keep the scout down there to keep tabs on Cathy.
IBT Kara builds an archer>temple as it is now size 6 and growth is nice.
Ta-Tu archer>archer
Almar worker>currah (I may change it later). We are now finished with our native work force.
Persia has built the Pyramids.
T2 1200BC
Up the slider to 20%. Now +4gpt
Move the scout S to keep an eye on Kathy
I now see Tusker's very real concern over our road network. I still think shield production is more important but the roading of a few tiles would make troop transport a heckova lot easier.
Take out Mao's stack: 2 losses, 3 elites (7-2)
Change the city build to warrior builds. We now have 8 available archers after MP duty and I would like at least 10 for the attack on China. Warriors will do fine for MP duty now and in three turns, we can free up 3-4 archers.
I think we should take Macao first as that would give us control of China's land access to us.
IBT Cathy demands 26g, which we give her. China and Russia builds the Great Wall and starts the SoZ (so much for her lack of iron).
T3 1175BC
Up the slider ot 30% to prevent a riot in TaTu. Change the build to a settler (growth and production in 5). +5gpt
Change Alma's build to a rax. It has the possibility for at least 5spt with some growth, at which time we can pump out come dinghies if we need to and send a trio together to brave the waters.
There is a border on the very south of our observable area that might be Cathy, so I decide to move the scout that direction to the actual iron rather than staying on the mountain to keep tabs on movement that would have to move through jungle and marsh.
IBT Chinese are building the Oracle.
T4 1150BC
Get the hill point first and fine a Chinese settler pair on the wheat and a warrior following. Hopefully, they will move so we can get some slaves.
IBT Chinese settler pair moves N out of range and we see the first Chinese sword(r).
T5 1125BC
Fortify our 8 archers (3 Es) on the hill to hit the sword when it comes in range.
Our scout moves into the jungle and finds a Chinese warrior :grrr:.
IBT Our scout dies (7-3) and we spot a Russian warrior from the North!!!! They might have their iron. I think it might work for us though as it would give us a nice reprieve from China when we want it and it would be a real war with Cathy as it would deprive her of iron
.
T6 1100BC
Do the troop shuffle and wait to attack Mao's forces.
Take out the Chinese sword and warrior with Es (9-3). See a spear and hum and haw a bit. Decide to move the whole force onto the plains. That spear in a N city would mean a full-scale assault but it's only northerly movement still puts it striking range of the stack on the hill so leave them there. There is an eArcher covering the 2/5 archer to mop up if need be (should have covered him with a vet).
Still haven't seen a vet unit from China.
IBT Ottomans complete the Oracle. Settler is built and Kara goes back to archer production. Spear moves S.
T7 1075BC
Send all units back to the hill as that is their best position and could still take the spear if it changes its mind.
Get 3 archers on the hill for an attack on Tatung.
Start moving the settler.
IBT A Chinese sword and spear pair (Rs) appear, but we are back on archer production and will have our stack of 10 in 2 turns so not a big deal. I do think I shouldn't have diverted forces to the North but lesson learned.
T8 1050BC
Dinghy makes its foray West.
Move units.
Real with Cathy expires next turn, which is good as we are at -1gpt.
I think that once the 10 units are stacked on the hill, we should go for Macao.
I think I was overly short-sighted with the worker assignments. Sorry.
IBT Dinghy dies.
After a bit longer break than expected, continue.
T9 1025BC
Move the settler to Kazan and leave it there.
Attack Mao's spear and sword.
Lose 4 archers, kill the spear and decide not to risk losing more against the sword (2hp). (10-7)
If this is the ratio, I think Macao is too ambitious. Taking a couple of his pop 1 towns and suing for a quick peace until we have iron hooked up is perhaps the best call.
We can have 6 archers to go at Tatung from a forest in 2 turns.
IBT sword dies against our archers on the hill (11-7).
T10 1000BC
Send archers towards Tatung. Send the spear towards the front and continue improving land.
And that's it.
Almarikh has its rax built and is building a warrior as it will free up the archer that is currently performing MP duty.
China is willing to negotiate but wants us to pay for peace.
We are currently at 30% lux to keep Karakorum happy. A temple would be nice once we can sue for peace.
Here's the log and save:
Set Goals: Get the war machine up as running as much as I can,
Mid Term: Push back China, continue to colonize the South and make as many contacts as we can.
1250BC T0
Have a look, drop the slider to 10% and hire some taxmen (+14gpt).
Pause for some clarification.
Make the IW deal with China for 14gpt. Boot him and he declares. The WH allows us to keep the slider at 10% and put the citizens back to work.
The closest iron is N of Tatung and there is another unclaimed source on the coast way up N of Kara. It'll be a bow war for a while.
Move the stack of 3 archers to the hill N of Kazan.
We are now at +11gpt with the same 127g in the bank.
Pause to re-read the game rules.
So it seems that our AltW condition is triggered by the 5th city rather than the this war. Of course we need a 5th city to claim the iron (unless we get a slave and use it to found a colony). There is a good chance that I will not get that 5th city planted this set. Even if I do, there are a number of options so I'm going to post this pre-set turn and let you all discuss it as I play my set.
IBT Russians are building the Colossus. China moves 4 rWarriors into our territory and place 2 rWariors and 2 rArchers on the hill as reinforcements.
T1 1225BC
Kill 4 archers (3-0). Decide to leave the last one as I would rather counter attack archers than defend against them (especially from a hill).
From what we can see, it doesn't look like Russia has iron but there is a source on the southern sub-continent near the desert incense, so I keep the scout down there to keep tabs on Cathy.
IBT Kara builds an archer>temple as it is now size 6 and growth is nice.
Ta-Tu archer>archer
Almar worker>currah (I may change it later). We are now finished with our native work force.
Persia has built the Pyramids.
T2 1200BC
Up the slider to 20%. Now +4gpt
Move the scout S to keep an eye on Kathy
I now see Tusker's very real concern over our road network. I still think shield production is more important but the roading of a few tiles would make troop transport a heckova lot easier.
Take out Mao's stack: 2 losses, 3 elites (7-2)
Change the city build to warrior builds. We now have 8 available archers after MP duty and I would like at least 10 for the attack on China. Warriors will do fine for MP duty now and in three turns, we can free up 3-4 archers.
I think we should take Macao first as that would give us control of China's land access to us.
IBT Cathy demands 26g, which we give her. China and Russia builds the Great Wall and starts the SoZ (so much for her lack of iron).
T3 1175BC
Up the slider ot 30% to prevent a riot in TaTu. Change the build to a settler (growth and production in 5). +5gpt
Change Alma's build to a rax. It has the possibility for at least 5spt with some growth, at which time we can pump out come dinghies if we need to and send a trio together to brave the waters.
There is a border on the very south of our observable area that might be Cathy, so I decide to move the scout that direction to the actual iron rather than staying on the mountain to keep tabs on movement that would have to move through jungle and marsh.
IBT Chinese are building the Oracle.
T4 1150BC
Get the hill point first and fine a Chinese settler pair on the wheat and a warrior following. Hopefully, they will move so we can get some slaves.
IBT Chinese settler pair moves N out of range and we see the first Chinese sword(r).
T5 1125BC
Fortify our 8 archers (3 Es) on the hill to hit the sword when it comes in range.
Our scout moves into the jungle and finds a Chinese warrior :grrr:.
IBT Our scout dies (7-3) and we spot a Russian warrior from the North!!!! They might have their iron. I think it might work for us though as it would give us a nice reprieve from China when we want it and it would be a real war with Cathy as it would deprive her of iron
.T6 1100BC
Do the troop shuffle and wait to attack Mao's forces.
Take out the Chinese sword and warrior with Es (9-3). See a spear and hum and haw a bit. Decide to move the whole force onto the plains. That spear in a N city would mean a full-scale assault but it's only northerly movement still puts it striking range of the stack on the hill so leave them there. There is an eArcher covering the 2/5 archer to mop up if need be (should have covered him with a vet).
Still haven't seen a vet unit from China.
IBT Ottomans complete the Oracle. Settler is built and Kara goes back to archer production. Spear moves S.
T7 1075BC
Send all units back to the hill as that is their best position and could still take the spear if it changes its mind.
Get 3 archers on the hill for an attack on Tatung.
Start moving the settler.
IBT A Chinese sword and spear pair (Rs) appear, but we are back on archer production and will have our stack of 10 in 2 turns so not a big deal. I do think I shouldn't have diverted forces to the North but lesson learned.
T8 1050BC
Dinghy makes its foray West.
Move units.
Real with Cathy expires next turn, which is good as we are at -1gpt.
I think that once the 10 units are stacked on the hill, we should go for Macao.
I think I was overly short-sighted with the worker assignments. Sorry.
IBT Dinghy dies.
After a bit longer break than expected, continue.
T9 1025BC
Move the settler to Kazan and leave it there.
Attack Mao's spear and sword.
Lose 4 archers, kill the spear and decide not to risk losing more against the sword (2hp). (10-7)
If this is the ratio, I think Macao is too ambitious. Taking a couple of his pop 1 towns and suing for a quick peace until we have iron hooked up is perhaps the best call.
We can have 6 archers to go at Tatung from a forest in 2 turns.
IBT sword dies against our archers on the hill (11-7).
T10 1000BC
Send archers towards Tatung. Send the spear towards the front and continue improving land.
And that's it.
Almarikh has its rax built and is building a warrior as it will free up the archer that is currently performing MP duty.
China is willing to negotiate but wants us to pay for peace.
We are currently at 30% lux to keep Karakorum happy. A temple would be nice once we can sue for peace.
Spoiler :
Wow. I just realized that it's been my turn for the last 10 days! I didn't mean to hold things up this long--in fact, I'm surprised I haven't been skipped.
In any case, I'm afraid I have to bow out of this game; RL issues are preventing me from giving it the focus it requires. I'll still be watching, though. Best of luck to everyone, and sorry again for holding things up.
In any case, I'm afraid I have to bow out of this game; RL issues are preventing me from giving it the focus it requires. I'll still be watching, though. Best of luck to everyone, and sorry again for holding things up.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Ouch!OK, no worries mate; I'm afraid that we've all lost focus a little with this one. You are welcome to rejoin us any time that RL permits.
Team, I'm up in 'Slavemaster', then I intend to give this game some much needed attention; however, with Phaedo also wrapped up in RL, I might need to bring in some fresh blood. Does anyone have any objection to that?
Elephantium
Trampling the AI
Good idea; we're a bit short on players at this point
CivActuary
Warlord
I have no objection. Between getting some new perspective and what with Slavemaster moving into the wrap up phase, this should give this game a much needed kick in the pants.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Couple of things:
I will have a useable PC tomorrow (hopefully), at which time I shall dust off this game.
Othniel has kindly agreed to help us out, and he will be joining us in the next week or so.
I will have a useable PC tomorrow (hopefully), at which time I shall dust off this game.
Othniel has kindly agreed to help us out, and he will be joining us in the next week or so.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Yep, I get the privilege of joining you guys. Thanks again, Buce!
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
OK, I have Internet access, now I just have to reinstall Civ and open up the save; I should be able to offer some thoughts later today.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
OK, I've had a good, long look at the save, and it's not pretty.
When I conceived this variant, I had assumed a more crowded map than this; to have this much land between three civs, is abnormal to say the least.
The consequences of only knowing two other civs are turning the screw beyond that of our self imposed restrictions. Tech cost for example: Cathy wants all our gold plus 2gpt for The Wheel.
And they are expanding further and faster than they would on a more crowded map.
I'm going to consider this overnight, but immediate thoughts:
Contacts; we desperately need to meet the others, to lower tech costs and give us future brokerage opportunities. Almarikh may need to be turned over to Curragh production.
We need to expand; I think that the Settler should found our fifth city ASAP, and Ta-tu should get a granary so as to intersperse Settlers with military production.
KK can knock out two turn Archers, so I think that we can fight an indefinite holding war at least, and with good RNG could raze some of those satellite cities. And we already have some Elites, so with luck we could see an Army from it.
Horses; we need to know where they are now. It's my guess that China doesn't have them or we'd be seeing horsemen by now, so we must give ourselves the chance of depriving them of those still available.
I'm guessing that you're all pretty much out of zone with this one, so it might be an idea for you to open up the save and see if you have anything to add.
I shall play the next set myself, but I'm going to give us time to consider our longer-term strategic options.
Oh, and not least, welcome to Othniel.
When I conceived this variant, I had assumed a more crowded map than this; to have this much land between three civs, is abnormal to say the least.
The consequences of only knowing two other civs are turning the screw beyond that of our self imposed restrictions. Tech cost for example: Cathy wants all our gold plus 2gpt for The Wheel.
And they are expanding further and faster than they would on a more crowded map.
I'm going to consider this overnight, but immediate thoughts:
Contacts; we desperately need to meet the others, to lower tech costs and give us future brokerage opportunities. Almarikh may need to be turned over to Curragh production.
We need to expand; I think that the Settler should found our fifth city ASAP, and Ta-tu should get a granary so as to intersperse Settlers with military production.
KK can knock out two turn Archers, so I think that we can fight an indefinite holding war at least, and with good RNG could raze some of those satellite cities. And we already have some Elites, so with luck we could see an Army from it.
Horses; we need to know where they are now. It's my guess that China doesn't have them or we'd be seeing horsemen by now, so we must give ourselves the chance of depriving them of those still available.
I'm guessing that you're all pretty much out of zone with this one, so it might be an idea for you to open up the save and see if you have anything to add.
I shall play the next set myself, but I'm going to give us time to consider our longer-term strategic options.
Oh, and not least, welcome to Othniel.
Phaedo
Emperor
Welcome Othaniel!
Sorry, I dropped the ball on this one. I spent too many resources on an idea to cut into Chinese territory when I could have at least taken a city for trading purposes.
The 5th city triggers our AW condition but with the distance, I think it is fine. It's out of my comfort zone but a defensive war will divert Ai resources away from resources and improvements that could seriously hurt us short-term. If we land the 5th city, then I am all for a boat production city. I like Scoutsout's idea of piling 2-3 currahs together for the exploration though. With all the land, we can be fairly confident that we'll make contact first and be in the broker position for a while. IIRC you should be able to get at least one satellite city within 4 turns. We do need to get on our horse (both literally and figuratively) and China is the only realistic opponent so I guess we suck it up until we can have a quick go at Russia. If we make an early contact, things could change but the short-term plan sound good.
Sorry, I dropped the ball on this one. I spent too many resources on an idea to cut into Chinese territory when I could have at least taken a city for trading purposes.
The 5th city triggers our AW condition but with the distance, I think it is fine. It's out of my comfort zone but a defensive war will divert Ai resources away from resources and improvements that could seriously hurt us short-term. If we land the 5th city, then I am all for a boat production city. I like Scoutsout's idea of piling 2-3 currahs together for the exploration though. With all the land, we can be fairly confident that we'll make contact first and be in the broker position for a while. IIRC you should be able to get at least one satellite city within 4 turns. We do need to get on our horse (both literally and figuratively) and China is the only realistic opponent so I guess we suck it up until we can have a quick go at Russia. If we make an early contact, things could change but the short-term plan sound good.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
My $0.02 after examining the save:
We should immediately attack Tatung (the northern iron city). We can move 6 vet archers near Tatung next turn and that should be enough to take it. It should auto-raze. Overall, I doubt the archers will really dent China--we need swords and possibly horses for that--but at least we can snipe at their border and give us some expansion room.
BTW, we are average militarily compared to China, definitely a good sign.
Do the variant rules allow us to capture cities or must we raze them? In any case, I think we should try to raze some cities here, especially any city of some size, to generate more workers. Perhaps we want to hold off killing any city until it reaches at least size 2 for slave possibilities...
Anyhow, we desperately need more workers, and for that reason founding the 5th city ASAP and getting it's worker would really help.
Agree with Buce on switching Ta-tu to a granary. IMO, it's crucial for us to simultaneously build settlers for expansion while fighting the semi-holding war against China, otherwise we're just going to become outnumbered. I think that Ta-tu can do a nice 6-turn settler/warrior factory and possibly even a settler/archer factory, although I didn't do the numbers.
I also agree on the curragh production. Certainly building curraghs and a granary will slow our archer flow, but the boats and settlers are for securing the future. I'm not overly optimistic that we'll be able to play tech broker with another continent because we have so few techs for DG level, but we'll see. It's worth a try for sure.
On a minor note, we can switch around the archer MP in Almarikh with a warrior from the capital. That way that extra archer can do some fast response in case China threatens more than expected.
Note that Russia is building the SoZ in Moscow... Perhaps a target for a future naval landing??
In other news...thanks for the kind welcome.
We should immediately attack Tatung (the northern iron city). We can move 6 vet archers near Tatung next turn and that should be enough to take it. It should auto-raze. Overall, I doubt the archers will really dent China--we need swords and possibly horses for that--but at least we can snipe at their border and give us some expansion room.
BTW, we are average militarily compared to China, definitely a good sign.
Do the variant rules allow us to capture cities or must we raze them? In any case, I think we should try to raze some cities here, especially any city of some size, to generate more workers. Perhaps we want to hold off killing any city until it reaches at least size 2 for slave possibilities...
Anyhow, we desperately need more workers, and for that reason founding the 5th city ASAP and getting it's worker would really help.
Agree with Buce on switching Ta-tu to a granary. IMO, it's crucial for us to simultaneously build settlers for expansion while fighting the semi-holding war against China, otherwise we're just going to become outnumbered. I think that Ta-tu can do a nice 6-turn settler/warrior factory and possibly even a settler/archer factory, although I didn't do the numbers.
I also agree on the curragh production. Certainly building curraghs and a granary will slow our archer flow, but the boats and settlers are for securing the future. I'm not overly optimistic that we'll be able to play tech broker with another continent because we have so few techs for DG level, but we'll see. It's worth a try for sure.
On a minor note, we can switch around the archer MP in Almarikh with a warrior from the capital. That way that extra archer can do some fast response in case China threatens more than expected.
Note that Russia is building the SoZ in Moscow... Perhaps a target for a future naval landing??
In other news...thanks for the kind welcome.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
OK, thanks guys.
I shall play this tomorrow AM, so if anyone else wants to add anything, now is the time.
I shall play this tomorrow AM, so if anyone else wants to add anything, now is the time.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Finally, I get to start this game again.
And I'm 3 turns in, needing advice; I've just got a MGL, but currently our best offensive unit is the Archer. Does anyone have any experience of Archer Armies? My own thoughts are that a defensive stat of 1 makes it almost useless, except as a pillager, but OTOH we are at least 2 sets from having Iron on line.
To further complicate the issue, I'm about to found our fifth city; we are trading with Cathy, so it is AW with Mao for the forseeable future, and he's sending Swords (dribs and drabs, admittedly, but they take a toll on Archers without Cats).
We have Horses at Ta-Tu (but not HBR); Mao, as I expected, lacks them.
I'm leaning towards making an Archer Army and use it to pillage China back to the Stone Age while we expand and hook up Iron and get HBR.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
Edit: Actually, on reflection, I think maybe a Spear Army is the better option; waiting until we have Iron to make a Sword Army seems wasteful of an opportunity, to me. A spear army will be able to pillage unmolested until Cavs at least, and pillaging will cause more harm to our enemies than any of our units will. And as a Militaristic nation fighting AW, we should see other MGL's soon enough.
And I'm 3 turns in, needing advice; I've just got a MGL, but currently our best offensive unit is the Archer. Does anyone have any experience of Archer Armies? My own thoughts are that a defensive stat of 1 makes it almost useless, except as a pillager, but OTOH we are at least 2 sets from having Iron on line.
To further complicate the issue, I'm about to found our fifth city; we are trading with Cathy, so it is AW with Mao for the forseeable future, and he's sending Swords (dribs and drabs, admittedly, but they take a toll on Archers without Cats).
We have Horses at Ta-Tu (but not HBR); Mao, as I expected, lacks them.
I'm leaning towards making an Archer Army and use it to pillage China back to the Stone Age while we expand and hook up Iron and get HBR.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
Edit: Actually, on reflection, I think maybe a Spear Army is the better option; waiting until we have Iron to make a Sword Army seems wasteful of an opportunity, to me. A spear army will be able to pillage unmolested until Cavs at least, and pillaging will cause more harm to our enemies than any of our units will. And as a Militaristic nation fighting AW, we should see other MGL's soon enough.
lurker's comment: It's been a while since I used an archer army, but recollections are that the 1 defense does make it almost useless. Have you considered a spear army? My guess is that the AI just almost won't attack one at this stage and you can hide archers under it.
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