Buce01: The Slavemaster

[Elephantium]

Is someone in the middle of a turnset right now?

 

[Bucephalus]

No, Phaedo is up but we need to assess the situation regarding our medium term strategy.

Although we are in agreement that we should ally Hiawatha against Shaka again, there are strategic considerations to discuss beyond that; Phaedo's post, suggesting that Mursilis should be our next target for expansion needs to be addressed.

I've been giving it some thought, and will post later this evening; it would be desirable if the team could do the same.

 

[Phaedo]

So sorry. I didn't realize I was up Going to look at the logs/ discussion and save now. Truly sorry m(_ _)m

EDIT: after a quick check, I guess I already posted a possible strategy. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Phaedo]

To be more explicit,

My plan would be to get Iros into a war with Zulu for joining their war against the Babs. This wouldn't happen immediately but probably on turn 3 or 4 (I'd like to rearrange units before we pulled the trigger). The plan would be to direct our forces against the Babs (so Punky would move South). Meanwhile, we continue on builds that build our research capability and economic ability (prioritized in that order).

We make a couple of stacks and let Zulu land their pathetic invasion forces.

What I would really like input on (if the above is agreeable strategically) is the trading strategy between continents. I'm relatively confident that I can keep us in the lead while feeding the appropriate beasts but I wouldn't mind whatever input could be given for how to get Zulu techs that benefit us.

 

[Bucephalus]

To be more explicit,

My plan would be to get Iros into a war with Zulu for joining their war against the Babs. This wouldn't happen immediately but probably on turn 3 or 4 (I'd like to rearrange units before we pulled the trigger). The plan would be to direct our forces against the Babs (so Punky would move South). Meanwhile, we continue on builds that build our research capability and economic ability (prioritized in that order).

That would seem to be a sound short term strategy, Babs are certainly there for the taking.

We make a couple of stacks and let Zulu land their pathetic invasion forces.

Don't get too wrapped up in infastructure, if you need military, build it; Knights are OK in a 14 shield city, and we'll have MT in the next couple of sets, so they'll upgrade nicely. In cities with fewer shields though, it might be worth bearing in mind that you can build a Hoplite and a Mace for 10 shields fewer, and get the same attack and defence stats; the extra movement point is not particularly important in localized warfare.

What I would really like input on (if the above is agreeable strategically) is the trading strategy between continents. I'm relatively confident that I can keep us in the lead while feeding the appropriate beasts but I wouldn't mind whatever input could be given for how to get Zulu techs that benefit us.

As far as I can see, Shaka is up Metalurgy only; if he has anything beyond that, the only way we're going to get it is as part of a peace deal, and it won't come any cheaper if we've not hurt him, so it's a good idea to let him land a few units.

Keep an eye on which direction research is taking on the other continent, and look to research something different. The situation won't last much longer because once Navigation is learned there will be contacts made.

Until then, use Hittites and Iroquois as trading partners.

Where I would differ with you is in your assessment of the medium term strategic aims.

I think it would be a mistake to make Mursilis a target for expansion, and for a number of reasons.

Chief among these is that it would upset the balance of power; I don't believe that this is in our best interests.

Zulu are a powerful beast, and will remain so for some time to come; keeping Hittites strong enough to be a capable ally is the best way to keep them under control. If we weaken Hittites we are going to need to compete in an arms race at a time when we will want to be building factories and power plants.

I agree with Miles that Iroquois are a more logical target.

They have the large cities that we need for increasing our slave holdings, and that large stretch of jungle territory has a good chance of having the coal and rubber that we are going to need relatively soon; they also have silks in a fairly accessable position.

As far as timing is concerned, we are possibly no more than 2 or 3 sets away from having Cavs and Rifles, bearing in mind our free tech.

Once we are left with a three power continent, then it will be fairly simple to manipulate Zulu and Hittites in to a position of our choosing; what that position will be remains to be seen, but we'd be pulling the strings.

 

[Miles Teg]

Hey guys.

I'd like to apologize for the bad turnset on my part. The bad build orders were mostly exam stress, but the blockade was my fault entirely. Just to note though, workers could stop an invasion in Vanilla, I didn't know they changed that in Conquests

Onto the issues.

I agree that we should 'help' Hiawatha in his war with Hammy.

I though think that inviting him to slug it out with Shaka is a mistake. I was on the helm during our war with him. His military is little more then ceremonial. Shaka would eat him alive. Mursilis is capable of keeping him occupied.

I think it's hardly worth noting that the Iroquois are little more then a holding company if we decide to move against them, Shaka is not such an obliging target though.

One last thing. I think it might be worth it to send a caravel or two over past Hammy. Our communications monopoly is going to evaporate pretty soon, and I think we need to cash in ASAP.

 

[Bucephalus]

Hey guys.

I'd like to apologize for the bad turnset on my part. The bad build orders were mostly exam stress, but the blockade was my fault entirely. Just to note though, workers could stop an invasion in Vanilla, I didn't know they changed that in Conquests

Forget it - bad sets happen to us all.

Onto the issues.

I agree that we should 'help' Hiawatha in his war with Hammy.

I though think that inviting him to slug it out with Shaka is a mistake. I was on the helm during our war with him. His military is little more then ceremonial. Shaka would eat him alive. Mursilis is capable of keeping him occupied.

I think it's hardly worth noting that the Iroquois are little more then a holding company if we decide to move against them, Shaka is not such an obliging target though.

But if Mursilis is capable of holdng Shaka, doesn't it stand to reason that he won't have the units spare to make any serious progress against Hiawatha?

Also, it would be nice for Hiawatha to be otherwise occupied while we annex Babylon; I'm surprised Shaka hasn't already allied him against us, and our military is a bit stretched right now.

One last thing. I think it might be worth it to send a caravel or two over past Hammy. Our communications monopoly is going to evaporate pretty soon, and I think we need to cash in ASAP.

Not quite sure of your reasoning here - could you expand on it?

 

[Miles Teg]

But if Mursilis is capable of holdng Shaka, doesn't it stand to reason that he won't have the units spare to make any serious progress against Hiawatha?

Also, it would be nice for Hiawatha to be otherwise occupied while we annex Babylon; I'm surprised Shaka hasn't already allied him against us, and our military is a bit stretched right now.

I based that coment on my own experience. Namely that around ten maces or knights would probably cripple/eliminate the Iroquois, although it would be a gamble. Their's a reason I refer to him as Sitting Duck.

Not quite sure of your reasoning here - could you expand on it?

Sure. I think the quickest route to wherever those last two tribes are is through Hammy's land. Magnetism and possibly Printing Press will be coming shortly and I think we can beat the A.I. I think we have a decent chance of being the only civilization with full contact for the next two or three advances, which could provide some excellent tech prices.

 

[Bucephalus]

I based that coment on my own experience. Namely that around ten maces or knights would probably cripple/eliminate the Iroquois, although it would be a gamble. Their's a reason I refer to him as Sitting Duck.

The words in bold are the reason why it should not become strategy, IMO.

Sure. I think the quickest route to wherever those last two tribes are is through Hammy's land. Magnetism and possibly Printing Press will be coming shortly and I think we can beat the A.I. I think we have a decent chance of being the only civilization with full contact for the next two or three advances, which could provide some excellent tech prices.

OK, that makes good sense to me.

 

[Phaedo]

I'm going to start it in a few hours. Any requests for builds or positioning?

 

[Phaedo]

The pre-set took quite a while. I won't finish until tomorrow. Basically not much has changed. I was able to get an extra 20ish beakers to research but it didn't cut down the time at all. I also changed a number of builds.

I'd also like some confirmation. We have salt and can make muskets. I could disconnect it to build Hopilites. Is this allowed or would it be seen as exploitive? I like the idea of hopilite/MI teams. As much as I love them, I don't really see a need for trebs.

 

[Bucephalus]

I'd also like some confirmation. We have salt and can make muskets. I could disconnect it to build Hopilites. Is this allowed or would it be seen as exploitive? I like the idea of hopilite/MI teams. As much as I love them, I don't really see a need for trebs.

No, I'd consider that an exploit; we are able to trade it away, though.

 

[Miles Teg]

The words in bold are the reason why it should not become strategy, IMO.

I wasnt suggesting it as strategy, that's just insane. I was suggesting it as why we shouldn't bring Sitting Duck into the war. The last thing we need is Shaka getting lucky.

 

[Phaedo]

No, I'd consider that an exploit; we are able to trade it away, though.

Understood. Will continue tonight after work. I'll also give my take on why I like getting the Iros into war with Shaka. Have to run to work now though.

 

[Phaedo]

It's not a huge deal if Shaka does get lucky. Really, he has his hands full with Murray though. The added knights sent against are going to hurt him more than he will be able to retaliate and take advantage. It will force Punky to move his troops South, which we really want. I plan to give our salt to Punky and that will allow him to build Muskets as well. This will make it very difficult for Shaka to walk over him.

 

[Phaedo]

OK, I'm on turn 6 and I'd like some input.
First, it seems I made the right choice on going for Physics (which we get in 2) as it will be a monopoly tech on both continents.
Shaka is being a jerk and has only landed 2 units so the price for his MT is prohibitive (over 2000g with Banking, which he doesn't have). Murray entered anarchy after we got the Iros in on the act and Shaka was able to take a couple of Iro cities (confirming MT's concern). We took razed the Bab city on the North coast and cot a couple of slaves from a settler that was stationed there. We haven't lost a unit and are in position to take another Bab city if we want. The Arabs and Ottomans are recently at war and They are both up Nav and Music on us.

We have 17 more turns in our alliance with the Iros against the Babs. Their units are leaving our territory nicely but being the idiots they are, they are all heading West toward the Babs. So I would like to make an RoP with the Iros so they could get their units out of our land faster. It would also allow us to send a force down to raze some Zulu cities. It will take about 4-5 turns but we could move a stack of 8 MIs 4-8 Hopilites and maybe 3 knights to raze a couple of Shaka's cities. We need that MT price to go down and that's the only way I can see to do it. We haven't seen a Zulu boat for 2 turns and could easily maintain a coastal defence as well.

Here's the bad news: Our alliance with Punky is broken because he lost his silks to Shaka. We gave salt for the alliance (as I wanted to get rid of it). Is our rep trashed? I really hope not. I don't think it is but I'm not sure. If so I really apologize.

 

[Bucephalus]

Here's the bad news: Our alliance with Punky is broken because he lost his silks to Shaka. We gave salt for the alliance (as I wanted to get rid of it). Is our rep trashed? I really hope not. I don't think it is but I'm not sure. If so I really apologize.

It should be fine as long as you didn't take lump sum gold, tech or WM; if it was like for like, it will be fine.

You can easily check by seeing if (in principle) we can buy something from Hittites or Hiawatha for gpt.

If we no longer have an alliance with anyone, we could make a deal with Shaka when we have Physics, bearing in mind we can then sell MT overseas.

 

[Phaedo]

I'm pretty sure it was just a straight deal. I'll check in a bit. He got MT a couple of turns ago. I don't mind paying a bit for it as we can easily make the cash back on the other continent. He's getting a bit big though. Now that Murray can start building again he should be able to put a bit of a dent into him, but I'm sure we could raze a couple of his cities and help keep him in check.

We are researching well and have luxes to spare. I missed an opportunity to give the Arabs Metallurgy for Nav his map and 80g. He ended researching it himself. Stupid I know.

 

[CivActuary]

Has the alliance with Murry against Shaka run out? Buce is spot on - we could throw that into the deal if we are not tied down any longer. Then by trading around we are going to come out ahead by quite a bit.

We took razed the Bab city on the North coast and cot a couple of slaves from a settler that was stationed there. We haven't lost a unit and are in position to take another Bab city if we want.

Why would we not want to? Isn't that our land the Babs are occupying?

Murray entered anarchy after we got the Iros in on the act and Shaka was able to take a couple of Iro cities (confirming MT's concern).

Took me a minute to figure that one out; I was wondering what type of concern Military Tradition would have until it hit me that particular MT abbreviation referred to Miles Teg.

 

[Phaedo]

Well, I just checked the save. Murray was insulted by an offer of 10gpt for his 2g. I guess that means we're busted. However I remembered getting the insulted message before so I checked the 750AD save. Same response. 10gpt for 2g from Murry insults him. I guess our rep got busted before my set. That makes me feel slightly better but doesn't change the fact that the deal I made with the Iros was 21gpt and silks for banking and salt as well as the MA before I knew our rep was busted.

The alliance with Murry runs out next turn. I'll be able to finish it after work today.