Buce01: The Slavemaster

[Bucephalus]

We probably have enough military potential to raze and replace Uruk and Nippur with the troops already in the West; Babylon will DOW if issued with a 'remove or declare' if the next player felt ready to go, and the War Happiness would be nice.

If we finish all current builds, I think that together with the veterans of the Hittite campaign, we have enough to hit Hiawatha too. It would take most of the next set to manoeuvre them in to position, but they would be in place for Phaedo's set.

Once all current military builds are complete, it might be a best use of our GA to build temples in our core at least; we could do with lessening our flip risks, and I think we have enough military for our needs. I certainly think we have enough Cats.

Hittites still seem a threat so our newly acquired cities should be left with ample protection, a minimum of 3 Hoplites, I'd say.

In the East, Hiawatha has four cities that will give Slaves (Tyendenaga, Centralia, Khanawake and Tonewanda) and Spices and Iron to settle on.

Between the two we should get enough techs for peace to leave the AA behind.

These are preliminary thoughts but they form a basis for discussion.

 

[Miles Teg]

Hmm I'll play after I can hear what the others think but heres my gameplan.

Going after Babylon is a no-brainer. We might have to move a couple of troops to the Babylonian border but the idea is to raze Uruck, and we can raze or keep Ellipi. (Saves us a settler) then we move on and raze Nippur. This plan isolates Nippur where as a pincer would just give the Babs time to re-enforce.

Three cities, and the time it takes should be enough to get Hammurabi to talk.

I'll second Buce's plan of going after the Iroquois, although it might be worth waiting for the soldiers on the Babylon front to cross over.

I suspect some of the cities could do better with courthouses then temples, and at least one decent production city should stick to military.

 

[Bucephalus]

I suspect some of the cities could do better with courthouses then temples, and at least one decent production city should stick to military.

Courthouses produce no culture, though; my thinking was to lower the flip risk that Elephantium identified.

How you conduct the military in the assault on Babylon will be your call, but if you feel that you won't get to the Iriquois in your set, you will need to liaise with Phaedo regarding his requirements.

You may be right about continuing military builds, though at this stage quality rather than quantity would be my choice, ie continue building Swords while disbanding Warriors and Archers to keep unit support down.

There is no reason that our core cities couldn't alternate builds; for example Athens could build Swords until Thermopylae has it's Temple, then they could switch.

Whether we build Courts or Temples though, I think we do need to begin building infastructure - especially Markets once available - in preparation for our eventual switch to Republic.

Edit: I've just re-read CivA's log and noticed something that I missed first time around - Iroquois are at war with Shaka; to my mind this adds weight to my suggestion of taking them on as soon as we can put troops in place.

I think it's clear that Sparta needs to keep building Settlers - we are creating a lot of gaps to be filled.

 

[Miles Teg]

Courthouses produce no culture, though; my thinking was to lower the flip risk that Elephantium identified.

I should have clarified that. I meant in the second tier of cities, not the ones with significant borders

 

[Bucephalus]

I should have clarified that. I meant in the second tier of cities, not the ones with significant borders

Yep, that makes more sense.

 

[CivActuary]

Just some ideas before I take off.

Babylon looks to be getting the short end of the stick in their war against the Hittites. We should find only a couple defenders, and there are 2 small stacks (one outside Thessalonica and the other outside Eretria) in place, each with a Hoplite, a couple swords and some cats, IIRC. We will only find spears, Babylon has no iron, and they have no attack 3 units to throw at our Hoplites. I almost think we could take those 3 citites rapidly without waiting for the units from the Hittite front - those could be sent toward the Iroquios for that upcoming war.

I think Ellipi should be first target - before the Hittites take it. That is where they were headed.

At 15spt Athens and Thermo would take 4 turns to build a temple in one and 2 swords in the other, and then reverse for the next 4 turns.

I did notice the flip risks decreasing as Babylon lost ground in their war (and our border cities grew a little).

 

[Bucephalus]

Well, it looks like we are all pretty much agreed on our short term objectives, so unless Phaedo has any concerns that require discussion, Miles should be free to take it at his convenience.

@Miles: Phaedo should be on-line in another couple of hours; bear in mind what I said about Iroquois - if you don't think you'll have time to initiate a strike inside 10 turns, Phaedo will indicate what he wants, and where he wants it.

Other than that, it's your call how you handle Babylon (including issuing a 'remove or declare' ultimatum), but remember that we still want Slaves; and try to broker the best peace deal that you can.

Use your discretion over Worker turns.

Anything that you are unsure about will probably have been covered in the planning posts before CivA's turnset.

@Phaedo: You know the drill, mate.

 

[Phaedo]

Sorry it took so long, I was re-reading the log and then my GF decided to take the day off too.

I think the Iro war will be pretty straight forward. My main concern would be to have settlers to replace the cities we raze. The land isn't great but they will eventually be specialist farms and I'd rather control the iron than leave it for others to trade. I think we will need at least 4 settlers for the cities we raze but I think we could fit 6 in there nicely. You won't be able to make that many in your set of course but maybe a couple built and a couple in the pipe? I think the Iro cities will cave pretty quickly so I think 2 build is a minimum and one needs to be with the attacking force before we go in.

A lot depends on the Bab war, but ideally I would like 6 cats, 4 swords and a couple of horses for the main force. Tyen will be the first target so if our forces could be left in the forest SE of Ephaus, that would be excellent (not the road please, the forest). Whatever more you could get there would be a bonus. If you can only get 4 cats, make it 5 swords.

Good luck Miles Tag!

 

[Bucephalus]

Any joy with this yet, Miles?

 

[Miles Teg]

RL intruded, should have the game played tonight.

 

[Bucephalus]

RL intruded, should have the game played tonight.

No worries, play when you're ready.

 

[Miles Teg]

Pre-Turn. Move a few catapults/swords/archers out of former Hittite territory.

Turn1. Issued troop orders. We have a taskforce of four swordsman, three catapults, one horseman, and one archer to take out Ellipi. We will soon have a taskforce of have a task force of three swordsman, four catapults, and one archer to seize Uruck. We will soon have a taskforce of three archers and one catapult to take out Shuruppack. It’s just a colony, but with the wheat we might get a mediocre worker pump, besides which I don’t want to have to type that name again. I should be able to strike on turn three.I MM Sparta, and up the slider to keep Corinth from rioting.

Turn2. Aargh. The Hittites take out three defenders in Ellipi. I spend a bit of gold to discover that they have two defenders left. Now’s the time for a gamble. I move two swords into Baylon’s territory. The Hitties expeditionary force has been worn down to the following: 1/3 HP swordsman, ¼ HP 3MC, and a 2/4 AC. They are attacking across a river, so there’s a decent chance they will lose. Right behind this paltry force is an SOD of swordsman

Turn3. The AI can be so unhelpful. They had a force that might have taken the city, and a force just behind that would rape the nation, and the Hittites mad their peace with Babylonia! I move out when Babylon orders me too, then ask that they return the favor , they refuse, and we are at war! I move the troops in, using the horse to snag a worker.

Interturn. Horseman heats one bowman, runs from another, and is killed by a spear, I actually consider this good as it keeps a defender from Ellipi, An Archer outside Shuruppack defeats a bowman, but is red lined. Babylon lands a spear next to defenseless Miletosis

Turn4. After some healthy bombardment, I attack Ellipi. A swordsman attacks an unfortified 3/3 bowman and wins, after getting itself redlined. Another swordsman gets itself redlined attacking a two HP spear. It kills it though. Swordsman attacks 2HP spearman and only looses one HP. Archer attacks 21hp bowman and looses.

Now lets shift to Shuruppack. Archer kills spear, looses one HP. Our second archer looses, the spear promotes. I shift a swordsman to be part of the attack. Now for Uruck. Bombard then attack. Vet sword kills 2hp spear, looses one Hitpoint. Another vet sword kills 2hp spear, looses one hitpont, Razes Uruck!!!! We gain five slaves!!!! Capture one stray worker with an archer. Kill a spearman near Thermoplyae. Shift a Hoplite to protect Miletosis.

Interturn. Bowman kills the swordsman that razed Uruck. Zulus demand ivory. Zulus get ivory

Turn5. Swordsman attacks spearman. Looses all HP but one, then kills it, razing the city of Shuruppack. One worker captured.

Swordsman attack 2/4 spearman, looses one hitpoint, then kills it. 3hp swordsman kills 2hp bowman without losses.

Found Artemisium on the horse just south of Uruck’s ruins. Kill a spear near Delphi with a veteran sword. Loose one hp. Kill a spear garrisoned in Ellipi with a 3hp sword, loose one hp. They have at least two more defenders, I assign a new-built horse to Ellipi. Shift a Hoplite to protect Hali-somethingorother.

Inter-turn. Regular Bowman kills vet archer with no losses. Regular Bowmen kills one hp sword after being knocked down to one hp.

Turn6. One hp sword kills one hp bowman. Three hitpoint sword kill 1hp bowman with no losses. Vet Horseman kills ¾ Bowman. Looses 2hp. 2/4 sword looses to 2/4 spear. Found Megara NE of Tobacco. ¾ archer looses to 1/3 Bowman, Bowman promotes. I take stock of my situation. I should be able to attack Hiawatha with every confidence of victory right now. I have seven swords to take the city behind the river, and about a dozen to take the other one (bad planning) I declare war and move in.

Turn7. The Iroquois are a push over. I took the western city without loosing a hitpoint and they were behind a river! Two swordsman and the town was razed, three slaves captured, One enemy swordsman killed outside of the town, no losses to our attacking swordsman. The eastern city put up a better fight. They redlined one swordsman and did one point of damage to another, only two spearmen though. Four slaves captured. Either way, we’ve taken two cities without a single dead unit. I truly wish I hadn’t overestimated the Iroquois. Our troops are in a neck and neck battle over in Babylonia. Loose a 4/4 archer to a 3/3 spear, no damage done to spear. Loose a 4/4 Hoplite to a 3/3 spear. 1 point of damage done to spear. Finally get the get the spear with a hoplite, No damage taken. Incase you wondering the Spear was about to take an undefended city. Loose a ¾ Sword to a 2/4 Bowman. Did one damage

Inter turn. Babylon steals a catapult, Babylon defeats an archer and steals a catapult, Two different swordsman hold off bowmen attacks.

Turn8. Hoplite defeats a 1hp bowmen, promotes to elite. 2/4 Horseman defeats 2/4 bowman garrisoned in Ellipi. Hoplite kills another spear without taking damage in the same siege. Now I take a gamble. A ¼ swordsman looses to a bowman, and another one kills the bowman and seizes the town of Ellipi!! Four slaves captured! Lost a swordsman attacking an Iroquois Spear/Settler, We promptly make up for it by killing the spear, capturing the settler, and promoting to elite all without loosing a hitpoint. Get a sword redlined killing a spear. Lost a sword trying to kill a sword then finished off the enemy sword

Inter-turn. Iroquois dropped off an archer next to Thermoplyae

Turn9. Killed the archer, lost a hitpoint. Killed a Iro sword, no losses. Killed an Iro sword, WE HAVE A GREAT LEADER!!! ¾ Sword kills sword. We loose the old duo, Warrior A and Warrior B, trying to take down a sword on a hill(they were swords at this point). Let’s pause for a moment of respect for these two explorers who became swordsmen.


Interturn. Loose two swords to MDI, Hoplite holds off three swords before dieing. Thessalaconia riots

Turn10. Another town defeated! Just like the other town none of our units so much as lost a Hitpoint! Both MDI killed. Lost a sword and a hoplite trying to take Nippur. Defeat a Warrior/Settler. Loose a sword to a spear on a hill, then kill it with another sword.


Thoughts.27

What are we going to do with the leader? Ive specifically left him unused to siting in a town to make sure everyone has a say on this. I personally say wait till feudalism and then make an army of MDI

I'd like to officially state I bungled the Babylonian war. I should have waited for more troops instead of sending them all to the Iroquois

The stats are as following: I've captured six cities and built two. I've captured 28 slaves. I'm content with the latter, but I fell I should have captured 7 cities.


Ok I'm exhausted after that turnset so I'll clean up the turnlog and post a screenshot later.

 

[Bucephalus]

Zulus demand ivory. Zulus get ivory

This was a bad mistake; if Hittites and Zulu go to war before this deal is up we will lose our trade rep. We also need to cave to Hittites during the same period.

It was discussed earlier in the thread that we had gone beyond the need to cave to demands.

Thoughts.27

What are we going to do with the leader? Ive specifically left him unused to siting in a town to make sure everyone has a say on this. I personally say wait till feudalism and then make an army of MDI

I think it would be better to use it for the FP - this isn't always war, and with our territory we should remain military top-dogs without the need for an Army.

I'd like to officially state I bungled the Babylonian war. I should have waited for more troops instead of sending them all to the Iroquois

The stats are as following: I've captured six cities and built two. I've captured 28 slaves. I'm content with the latter, but I fell I should have captured 7 cities.

Yes, you seriously underestimated Babylonian resistance, but our primary objective of gaining Slaves has again exceeded my expectations - well done on that.

I think we should look to give peace to both Babylon and Iroquois now; both will give good deals (we will need to discuss our best options) but I would think MMaking is top of the list - if we can get a quick harbour built we might be able to set up another trade route through Iroquois coastal waters and lessen the threat of a disrupted trade route with Zulu.

I suggest everyone downloads the save - there is clearly a lot to be discussed, ie what to do with the MGL; whether to continue war or give peace; if peace, which techs we want; where to build our FP, once we have the option to do so; where to place cities in the wide open spaces that have appeared (dotmaps please);

I think it is time to be thinking along the lines of a Govt change, too, so we need those Slaves working to improve our territory ASAP; we also need to decide how we're going to acquire Republic - research it, buy it, make it part of the peace deal?

As always, lots of thought and opinions please.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, I've had chance to take a detailed look at the save, and I have a few comments/ suggestions.

First, the positive areas of the set:

28 Slaves is a big result; along with the 18 CivA captured and the ones we already had, we now have 54 - equal to 27 regular workers.

We have cleared a lot of land to settle and I'm glad to see you weren't rigid about keeping Settler builds to Sparta alone.

There are some negatives that I must bring to your attention, though:

The Babylon war, you've already mentioned;
We are running 20% on the lux slider - it only needs to be at 10%.
We are building Hoplites in non Barracks towns; we do not want or need regular units at this stage of the game.

All in all though, a highly productive set.

So, where to now?

I suggest the following:

Peace to Babylon for Currency and MM in exchange for 200g;
Peace to Iroquois for Construction and Polytheism in exchange for 420g;

This will put us in the MA's; hopefully our free tech will have trade value enough for us to get Republic.

Begin research on Literature; no-one has it so it will have monopoly trade value, and we can begin Libraries;

In the meantime we should switch military builds to Markets or Temples where appropriate, in preparation for a Republican govt.

We can build the FP; I haven't yet decided where I think it would be best but I think it should be rushed with the MGL.

As mentioned before we need to protect our rep, so that means caving to Mursilis for the next 14 turns.

As always, these are suggestions only; you all should know my style by now - I like comment, discussion and suggestions from the whole team.

 

[Phaedo]

I just looked at the save, wrote all these note, checked the thread and realized everything had already been said. Peace and gold for parity and trade for Rep later. Once we are in the new age, we can decide on a research path and decide when and how to research but we have self-research options that can bring us more techs. I'd rather self-research for techs that will give us other trading opportunities and that becomes effective when get Libs. We have a lot to do before that point.

We have a strong military but it has spread out and needs time before it could even muster an effective counter punch at this point. As much as I was looking forward to kicking off a good AA war, I think it's a great opportunity for peace. The Babs are seriously weakened with their seven cities. Iros will take a long time to get up to being a threat again, if they can even manage that. We have a lot of land to populate and a lot of land to improve we need time to do that. Our forces have been depleted but we are still in an immediately dominant position so we should take advantage of this opportunity and consolidates our gains.

I'd like to build the FP in Marathon but I believe it commits us to an eventual military conflict with Murry. In the mean time, it leaves an incredibly important city relatively vulnerable. However, I think another poke at Murry would get us more than techs. If we decide against Marathon, I like Ephasis (just remember it is pop 1, when you look at it in CAII). It's not the biggest immediate improvement, but it has possibility for being a great city if we give it room to grow.

I'm about to work on dotmaps, but these are my thoughts thus far. I do feel quite strongly that we don't self-research unless it gives us a chance at more from our neighbours or we are forced into doing it. The first isn't possible until we improve our land nor do I think that we are in the latter situation either.

 

[Bucephalus]

I just looked at the save, wrote all these note, checked the thread and realized everything had already been said. Peace and gold for parity and trade for Rep later. Once we are in the new age, we can decide on a research path and decide when and how to research but we have self-research options that can bring us more techs. I'd rather self-research for techs that will give us other trading opportunities and that becomes effective when get Libs. We have a lot to do before that point.

We have a strong military but it has spread out and needs time before it could even muster an effective counter punch at this point. As much as I was looking forward to kicking off a good AA war, I think it's a great opportunity for peace. The Babs are seriously weakened with their seven cities. Iros will take a long time to get up to being a threat again, if they can even manage that. We have a lot of land to populate and a lot of land to improve we need time to do that. Our forces have been depleted but we are still in an immediately dominant position so we should take advantage of this opportunity and consolidates our gains.

I'd like to build the FP in Marathon but I believe it commits us to an eventual military conflict with Murry. In the mean time, it leaves an incredibly important city relatively vulnerable. However, I think another poke at Murry would get us more than techs. If we decide against Marathon, I like Ephasis (just remember it is pop 1, when you look at it in CAII). It's not the biggest immediate improvement, but it has possibility for being a great city if we give it room to grow.

I'm about to work on dotmaps, but these are my thoughts thus far. I do feel quite strongly that we don't self-research unless it gives us a chance at more from our neighbours or we are forced into doing it. The first isn't possible until we improve our land nor do I think that we are in the latter situation either.

What do you think about self-researching Lit?

As a monopoly tech it has trade value, and as you point out, we need libraries; currently, we can research it in 6, though the GA must be close to finishing so maybe a couple more turns.

We seem pretty much in agreement on everything else.

 

[Bucephalus]

Re. the FP:

Marathon would suit, as would Rhodes or this city we have yet to build; it would have access to 4 food each off the fish, 5 (eventually) off the game, 4 off the wheat. By the time we got to RR it would be a shield rich monster.

Spoiler :

 

[Phaedo]

What do you think about self-researching Lit?

I hadn't thought about it. I guess it would both have benefit for the empire, potential trade value and would happen in a time where we were working on infrastructure. However, we won't be able to research at the same rate as we'll lose some research funding for the tech trades. I think a reasonable estimate is 10-12 turns, before the Rep trade. We are going to have to run off our principal for the turns of anarchy and if we are paying gpt for the age jump, we need a bank. I don't mind throwing some beakers into it to get it (read: make it cheaper), but I don't know if we could maintain the economy and get it before someone else does. Could we afford a couple suicide galleys now?

I don't think we are really ready for self-research yet but we are at the point where we could use small research and a strong economy to stay with the big boys if we knew all the players. We don't. With all the players in this game, I think it will be a while before self-research beats research-for-discount and building the gpt (gross, not net). I wish we knew more folks; it could make this decision easier or much more complicated.

I guess, I'm against the self-research plan for Lit but I see value in acquiring it and getting it as cheaply as possible. I would just like exploration tied to it. I don't think you can do one without the other in a game with this many opponents.

Ideally, I'd like to go with the Lit play (to the extent that we can) until we are out of our GA and re-assess at that point.

I just read the Wheat FP post, and I'd rather see a commerce-rich FP than shield rich one. Commerce benefits more from the higher OCN. I think if we are going for potential, I'd put up the current settler location over the red dot (one of the green is a BG and the commerce benefit from the lux). I'd still take Marathon though

EDIT: I didn't read the coastal FP closely enough. I'm go for that in a second too. And it's closer to the Cap!. Sold.

 

[Bucephalus]

I don't see how we'd lose research funding with the tech trades - we have a huge bank, and can get all four outstanding AA techs for 620g and peace. Lit would take 6 turns, maybe 2 more when we come out of our GA.

Neither is a case of either/or as regards suicide galleys; we will be able to build them once we acquire MM in the peace deal. We could even afford to rush them.

 

[Miles Teg]

The red dot looks like an excellent place to me place to me. I seem to remember my comment "It’s just a colony, but with the wheat we might get a mediocre worker pump"

Making peace with Babylon sounds good, but I think we should capture one more city from the Iroquois. The lost city combined with a few more obscure factors should get us a more juicy deal. I highly doubt they will put up a serious fight.

Researching Lit sounds reasonable, at this rate we probably have customers in Babylon and the Iroquois whether we're first to it or not.