BUG suggestion

[phungus420]

With the new BULL (BUG dll), and also the popularity of BUG in general, I suggest BetterAI include BULL by default. I don't think there are many users that would want BetterAI without BUG, as the vast majority of players who download mods consider the BUG UI essential.

 

[Jaroth]

Wow, I was just going to post a question asking if BUG was compatible with the latest BetterAI (the only mod I've ever used).

I hear so much about it and it looks very useful - I'd like to install it along with BetterAI.

 

[NBAfan]

It should be essential to merge them. @Jaroth try BUG it is so useful that you will not want to play with out it.

 

[MadmanAtW]

I just recently merged the SVN BUG with BetterAI's most recent release. It's easy if you install them both as mods (ie, follow the first set of instructions in the "how to merge BUG and BetterAI topic).

If there's enough interest I'd be willing to upload a merged version somewhere as each makes new releases, since I immediately merge them for myself anyway.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I just recently merged the SVN BUG with BetterAI's most recent release. It's easy if you install them both as mods (ie, follow the first set of instructions in the "how to merge BUG and BetterAI topic).

If there's enough interest I'd be willing to upload a merged version somewhere as each makes new releases, since I immediately merge them for myself anyway.

Are you talking about BULL, or just BUG? Merging BULL with Better AI is the main thing under consideration here because they both use a DLL. Merging just BUG with BetterAI is indeed fairly straight forward.

 

[MadmanAtW]

Sorry- there I was just talking about BUG. It's simple but people variously wander by asking how to do it, and I roll up merged versions for my household anyway, so I thought I'd offer the upload. But yeah, it's trivial enough if you're ok with taking the mod versions of each.

I haven't tried playing with BULL at all. I guess I got sidetracked responding to the more immediate comments (about BUG's compatibility with BetterAI) rather than the OP.

I'd love to see a natively merged version with BULL, though I wonder if people with slower systems might still like a version of BetterAI that was solitary? I dunno how much BUG adds to resource consumption but under certain circumstances it does seem to slow things down.

 

[phungus420]

Well actually I meant both. I just can't picture a user that would want BetterAI but wouldn't use it because it included BULL (including BUG), but there are many players that wol't use better AI because it doesn't have BUG, but would if it did. It just seems the most straightforward thing to do would be to begin releasing BBAI with BULL included by default.

Plus having a uniform BBAI + BULL core would be great, as it would create a standardized, save game compatible core for everyone to use. In effect a Community Unaltered Gameplay (unless you consider fixing AI logic game altering) Patch.

Basically I want to see it so that in the Succession Games it's a viable option (and hopefully will become a popular one) to have BetterAI games. Currently this is imossible as dealing with all the BUG mergers, and a lack of a standardized save game compatible core is too much of a PITA for multiple players to set things up.

 

[jdog5000]

This sounds like a really good idea! I don't know what's in BULL v BUG plain, but BUG is really nice to play with.

I imagine the best solution is probably to keep a pure BBAI build and then have a Community Unaltered Gameplay standard like you proposed ... that would probably be quite popular.

Anybody want to step up and be in charge of that? It probably means doing a merge every couple months, since you'd want to wait to make sure BBAI and BULL were stable before putting out the combo.

 

[Elkad]

This sounds like a really good idea! I don't know what's in BULL v BUG plain, but BUG is really nice to play with

See this thread for stuff in Bull. A lot of it is changed hover and display info. Much better than all the alerts you get in the log.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=307951

And the work in progress files (seems perfectly stable to me, in a few hundred turns of "testing") are here if you want to play with it.
https://civ4bull.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/civ4bull/

I'd really love a merge. Even a mostly untested one.

 

[Dearmad]

NO THANKS. Do NOT merge BUG and BAI I'll do that myself at my end thank you. Keep BAI as pure and clean as possible.

No opinion about BULL, don't use it. Sounds like just an extra burden on the modders of BAI who I want to continue to focus on pure AI, thank you. If someone wanted to do it as an extra, then ok, but don't take time out from improving AI.

 

[phungus420]

NO THANKS. Do NOT merge BUG and BAI I'll do that myself at my end thank you. Keep BAI as pure and clean as possible.

If you're going to merge BUG and BBAI on your end anyway, why are you against it just being the default setup? Would a default BUG + BBAI cause you not to use BBAI?

 

[PieceOfMind]

NO THANKS. Do NOT merge BUG and BAI I'll do that myself at my end thank you. Keep BAI as pure and clean as possible.

No opinion about BULL, don't use it. Sounds like just an extra burden on the modders of BAI who I want to continue to focus on pure AI, thank you. If someone wanted to do it as an extra, then ok, but don't take time out from improving AI.

I'm fairly sure I'm not only speaking for myself when I say that BULL is the only mod that actually makes me not want to use Better AI. In effect, both are "unaltered gameplay" mods and it makes sense to have a merged version of them available.

If you are able to merge BULL and BBAI yourself then please share it with us because no one has done it yet. Because both mods make DLL changes, merging them is not a simple task and that is why it has been proposed that it is ony done every few months perhaps, and with stable versions.

I understand your concern though - the main reason I appreciate Better AI so much is that it is in fact a very focused project.

P.S. Just in case you didn't realise, BULL is the DLL component of the BUG project. It too is an unaltered gameplay mod. Some of the changes, including my Combat Odds mod, cannot be done outside of the DLL and so cannot make it into the standard BUG mod.

 

[Elkad]

I'm fairly sure I'm not only speaking for myself when I say that BULL is the only mod that actually makes me not want to use Better AI.

Truth. Matter of fact my last 2 games I've played without BetterAI, because of the new BULL dll.

Merging DLLs may be simple for a programmer. But it's over the head of a lot of us. We asked for a merge in this and the BUG forums, because the guys there at least know the code. So they seem the most likely candidates to do it easily.

However, if someone else wants to tackle the merge and share the results, leaving our friendly developers more time to develop, even better.

 

[Nishdog]

Truth. Matter of fact my last 2 games I've played without BetterAI, because of the new BULL dll.

Merging DLLs may be simple for a programmer. But it's over the head of a lot of us. We asked for a merge in this and the BUG forums, because the guys there at least know the code. So they seem the most likely candidates to do it easily.

However, if someone else wants to tackle the merge and share the results, leaving our friendly developers more time to develop, even better.

I agree. I like BUG and use BUG. I want to use Better AI and I want to use BULL, but keeping up with merging all the updates can become cumbersome and I'll probably make a mistake somewhere down the line...I currently use SVN to update BUG, and I just downloaded BetterAI and followed the merge instructions. I will assume I did it correctly because I didn't get any error messages when starting the game.

It would be nifty if I could go to one place and get all 3, fully merged and updated!

 

[Roland Johansen]

I'm also in favour of someone periodically producing a merged version of BAI and BULL. I hope someone is up to the task.

 

[r_rolo1]

In the end this is the exact same discussion there was in the BUG forum regarding using the UP changes in the BULL code. BUG and BAI are far from incomaptible, but there will be users of BAI that, for some reason, will not like/want BULL features in BAI.....

 

[Roland Johansen]

If the BAI mod creators just focus on BAI, the BUG/BULL mod creators just focus on BUG/BULL and independently someone creates merges (ones every few months after major stable versions), then we could have both.

I have no idea how much work it would be to create these merges for an experienced modder.

 

[phungus420]

If the BAI mod creators just focus on BAI, the BUG/BULL mod creators just focus on BUG/BULL and independently someone creates merges (ones every few months after major stable versions), then we could have both.

This perception is divorced from reality. First off, if BBAI was standardized with BULL, all further iterations would require no further work. Secondly, since BBAI is done nearly entirely by jdog, who also works on Revolutions, which is merged with BUG, keeping sepperate versions, and merging it in probably creates more work.

Also with regards to UP and BUG, that I understand, many people play with BUG specifically because it is unaltered, and the UP, by definition alters gameplay (mainly by patching bugs). BBAI on the other hand is altered, the AI is improved. The subset set of players that accept an altered game experience, and would not accept an altered UI would be an order of magnitude smaller then the converse.

Look at the end of the day there are going to be litterally exponentially less users using Better AI if it does not incorporate BUG. Force people to pick between the two, which is the current state of things (or learn to merge python ), and the overwheling majority will pick BUG. Force users to accept BBAI with BUG, or play default (or the UP I suppose), and your'e going to see very few users that would play BBAI not use it because it includes the BUG UI.

 

[Roland Johansen]

This perception is divorced from reality. First off, if BBAI was standardized with BULL, all further iterations would require no further work. Secondly, since BBAI is done nearly entirely by jdog, who also works on Revolutions, which is merged with BUG, keeping sepperate versions, and merging it in probably creates more work.

Also with regards to UP and BUG, that I understand, many people play with BUG specifically because it is unaltered, and the UP, by definition alters gameplay (mainly by patching bugs). BBAI on the other hand is altered, the AI is improved. The subset set of players that accept an altered game experience, and would not accept an altered UI would be an order of magnitude smaller then the converse.

Look at the end of the day there are going to be litterally exponentially less users using Better AI if it does not incorporate BUG. Force people to pick between the two, which is the current state of things (or learn to merge python ), and the overwheling majority will pick BUG. Force users to accept BBAI with BUG, or play default (or the UP I suppose), and your'e going to see very few users that would play BBAI not use it because it includes the BUG UI.

If it is divorced from reality, then why did Jdog5000 suggest the same thing himself a few posts above mine?

However, the rest of your post seems to suggest that I don't want a merged version. I don't know where you got that idea as I do want a merged version. It would be the way I would prefer to play an unmodded version of civ.

It's hard to think of reasons why players would prefer BAI without BULL, but it's often hard to place yourself in someone else's shoes. Some people just have different preferences. The only reasons I could imagine at this point:
- A player thinks that BULL slows down the game and doesn't like that
- A player has some unidentified problem on his computer with BULL

Note that I'm not supporting these reasons so I'm not going to start an argument with you defending the position of other players. Start an argument with Dearmad if you want to. He apparently doesn't want a merge.

 

[Yakk]

For the most part, don't both DLLs modify distinct classes? If I wasn't being crushed by work, I'd think making a per-class DLL loading factory would be a good move.