Bugs 2.1 The Gauntlet Revisited

[Justus II]

Any news, Gozpel? I saw your got it, so I'd hate to start playing if you've already played some turns, but as I mentioned, I'm leaving Tuesday. I wouldn't be able to play tonight anyway, but if I don't see any response, I'll take it tomorrow night.

 

[grahamiam]

Any news, Gozpel? I saw your got it, so I'd hate to start playing if you've already played some turns, but as I mentioned, I'm leaving Tuesday. I wouldn't be able to play tonight anyway, but if I don't see any response, I'll take it tomorrow night.

this sounds fine with me as well.

btw, sorry to see you go justus. glad you accepted the invite to play this one as it has certainly been a good ride good luck with the military sim!

 

[gozpel]

I ordered a new brain, but have to wait since they were out of Neanderthal.

I downloaded the wrong save and played through, very nice turns but quite obsolete.

Hope Justus can take it instead

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I have finally read through the thread. Well played game especially given that early loss of a granary. Truly a remarkable comeback. I thought you guys were goners for a while.

I didn't realize that Bede has a part time job as an extortionist. Hey Bro, you're going to have to let me in on your secrets.

BTW, in case anyone didn't know, there isn't any more spoiler information to be had, except maybe where there is oil. So you can read the other thread.

 

[Justus II]

Start by looking at the tech situation. We need 3 techs to get to the Modern Age, Flight as mentioned, and also Mass Production and Motorized Transportation. I’d actually prefer Mass Production first, as we have a number of cities that could benefit from Commercial docks, but I’m not sure how to pull it off. The good news is we can’t be too far behind, Carthage is still Industrial, and no one has started any Modern wonders or space ship parts. I see our hands are pretty well tied diplomatically, we have current deals with everyone but Theo extending at least the next 10 turns, and with our alliance we can’t deal with her during my reign either, so I don’t have a lot of options.

I do see one option, though. Carthage doesn’t have flight yet, but they do have Mass Production. A steal is a possibility, although expensive. A safe steal is 2540g, which would still be a long way off at our current income. An immediate is much cheaper, at 1270, but riskier. But what are the risks? Worst case, they declare war, but they’re only a shadow of themselves, their military is weak compared to ours, and we’d save 90gpt in payments. We’ll see if I can scrounge up enough cash to give it a try.

As for victory conditions, we’re at 29% on size and pop, right behind Portugal at 32%. Culture could be an issue, they’re at 32,000 but I think Korea looks to be over half their size. I would expect a space launch by someone before then, though.

1425 (0) I run through the cities to see what I can MM, but Bede’s done a good job, I hire a couple more Civil Engineers or cops, but mostly leave things as is. Unit support still hurts, especially when we’re paying for a lot of conscripts and obsolete units. I disband our last spear, two cannons, and a couple explorers, if I can get some new Vet infantry built I may try to disband some of the MDIs.

IBT: Izmit-Library>duct, Urfa-Library>Transport (in case we need one later).

1430 (1) Shift a few garrisons.
IBT: Istanbul-Hydro>Intel Agency, Kirklareli-Court>Market. Portugal starts UN and Manhattan, not good.

1435 (2) Not sure what we can do at this point, when they complete the UN the vote would come down to Henry and us, and we’ve already fought wars vs. everyone else. We could try to capture Lisbon to prevent a vote, but I don’t know how we’d do it. We don’t currently have any transports, so I’m gonna zero out Izmit to start one there, but we’d still be limited to our Sipahi army and whatever else we could scrape up. The other option, if we could get a good idea of when he will complete it, would be to sign MPPs with the other nations (making peace with Theo first, hopefully) and then trigger a war with Henry, to force everyone else into war with him. If it works, he probably would just not call the vote, which would at least buy us some time, but then again, it would also give him cause to use the other wonder he started…..

IBT: Trade Embargo between China and Korea on us ends. Canton-Bank>infantry, Uskudar-Courthouse>Transport. Korea starts Hoover Dam (I thought Portugal already had it, but I guess it was under construction) and Theo tried to plant a spy, but we caught her.

1440 (3) We can trade now, so I trade Silks +8gpt for Furs, should save us the 25gpt on lux. Re-MM a bit, putting a few citizens back to work. We also have Iron to offer China, but Mao has nothing to offer us in return.

IBT: Bursa-Hydro>Infantry.

1445 (4) Mine some irrigated tiles near Bursa and Izmit to optimize production, Bursa can do an Infantry every other turn now.

IBT: Beijing-Harbor>Market. I wasn’t that far off, Portugal completes Hoovers in Emerita.

1450 (5) More worker actions, Orhan’s army is back on the mainland, and galleons headed for north coast.

I’m gonna stop here, I still have a lot to do to get ready for my trip, but I also think this is a good place for a discussion about where to go from here. The war with Theo is phony at this point, I haven’t seen a single one of her units. Checking around, MPPs can be had, Carthage and Korea would each need 700-900g, or 40-50 gpt. (We’ve got 900g, and +200gpt). China had some ridiculously high demands, even with Steam, Mil Tradition, Medicine AND Nationalism, they still wanted some gpt, but that may be due to our current war with Theo, I think if we are at peace the cost comes way down. Besides, to just block the vote, we really only need 2 more. So that’s still a viable option, but we would have to set up the alliances and then go to war with Henry, which we better be prepared for, and it will still only buy us some time. If he busts out the Nukes, we may regret that course of action. :0 Setting all that up, with at least one other (maybe Theo if we can get peace first), then going for a quick-strike UN capture, is also an option, but it wouldn’t be easy, see the latest satellite imagery below:

So you can see, we do have some time before the UN completes, but that’s a LOT of firepower, (2 more infantry scrolled off the screen). Like I said, it’s something that merits some serious discussion and planning, and unfortunately I don’t have the RL time to do that right now, so I’d rather hand off and toss some ideas out. With 30+ turns to prepare, it can be done, that allows time to buy flight and get a TON of bombers built, and with Lethal Bombard, anything’s possible but it’ll take a deliberate plan, and with no swapping builds, we need the tech as soon as possible.

Here's the roster:
Justus II <=Just Played (half, anyway, but that's all for now)
Grahamiam <= UP
Microbe <= On Deck
Gozpel
Bede

I hope to have at least limited net access, so I will try to follow along, but I can't guarantee that until I get there. Meanwhile, Good Luck!

 

[grahamiam]

i can take it tonight unless gozpel would like to play his turns now.

in regards to Portugal and the UN, we could just forget about china and try to get Korea and Byz on our side via an MA or MPP's. Before the UN is built, we will need to wipe out Carthage so there are only 5 possible voters. I believe sgomt2 taught all that the AI will hold a vote as long as he can get at least 1 in his favor.

thoughts on wars: landing armys over on Portugals mainland will be very tough as the bombers will reduce thier HP's, probably enough for the AI to believe that it can attack them with tanks. if we still want to go for domination, we would probably be better off allying with Portugal vs the others, thus holding off a vote (assuming we are #2 on the ballot), and racing him to 66%. The end would come as a showdown between us and them, probably very messy and involving lots of modern warfare. it only gets tougher when you think about thier superiority in the seas.

 

[Justus II]

As of my turns, Portugal and us were #1 and #2 in population, so we should be the two opponents in the vote. Good idea about reducing the number of voters, I wish I'd realized that. That may be a pretty good strategy to get a guaranteed block AND a good shot at a win in the shortest time. The longer you go, the more a space launch becomes a threat as well.

 

[grahamiam]

i will wait on starting till tomorrow. i'd like the entire group to weigh in on how we want to proceed

 

[gozpel]

I doubt we can take on Portugal with our ever-so-great sipahis, not when they have tanks and infantries. Rifles are ok to combat, but we are far beyond that now.

Can we dogpile Portugal? Dunno and I doubt it, they are way ahead and we need every coin we can get our hands on to steal techs, since we can't research anything by ourselves.

So the only real chance is to remove a couple of civs, so an UN-vote can't take place and with some luck we can make a move to avoid a spaceship launch later. It doesn't look bright though, Portugal is researching at a pace way beyond anyone else and are running away without breaking sweat.

 

[microbe]

That's just 7 infantry in the capital.

I think we have a chance at getting the UN. A bunch of bombers + infantry + sipahi or tanks (even better) would do it. We can bombard the roads around the city to delay reinforcement. We may even get Computers before that.

On another hand we can declare first, then capture the city when portugal wants to talk, then sign peace asap. This requires a strong navy.

We have to time it right, though, so we can hold the vote just after we capture the city.

We still have time. Get Mass Production or Flight first, build transports/navy and bombers. Before that, artillery and infantry wouldn't hurt.

Domination, on the other hand, doesn't seem easier.

 

[gozpel]

You forgot to mention the tank, the 3 destroyers and the Tow? And a bomber. And since it's scroll involved there's probably a few more units in there

But your right microbe, we're just hanging against the ropes and it's not over yet.

 

[microbe]

I once read that AI would hold a vote as long as at least one guy would vote for it (polite at least). Not sure if this is true. If Portugal would hold the vote, we could leave one guy gracious to it and ally (or sign MPP) with all others. This is tricky indeed.

 

[Bede]

G-man wrote:
"in regards to Portugal and the UN, we could just forget about china and try to get Korea and Byz on our side via an MA or MPP's. Before the UN is built, we will need to wipe out Carthage so there are only 5 possible voters. I believe sgomt2 taught all that the AI will hold a vote as long as he can get at least 1 in his favor. "

Concur. Going toe to toe with Portugal in the middle Modern Era on his home grounds reminds me of those Kentucky knifefights where the battlers are joined by a bandana held in their teeth. But in this case one of the combatants is using a pen knife and his name ain't Henry.

You don't need to control the Un to win the vote and the prerequisites for winning are the same. The big risk is the builder never holds the election.

 

[gozpel]

"The big risk is the builder never holds the election."

Exactly!

That will happen if we succeed dogpiling Henry, he won't hold any elections and just fight until he can go to Alpha Centauri.

But IF we find a way to take the city and also hold it for a turn, we have a chance. The problem is if we use bombers we can destroy the Wonder and we're in Nomansland.

I think we should try to get that Byz city nearest us, SE of Portugal and create a base. If we raze it (preferably) or just take it doesn't matter, as long as we can get a foothold on the continent. From here we can make peace with Byz's and work on the dogpile. A bunch of airfields would give us defense until we can hurt him enough to go at the UN-city.

Or am I too optimistic?

 

[gozpel]

I mean this city.

We should keep it to avoid Portugal's border to expand over the tile.

Hmm, looking at the pic we CAN settle if we raze it, while still in war with Byz that is. If we raze the city we can build quite a few airfields with the workers we get when we raze the city.

And then bombers and more bombers.

 

[grahamiam]

attached is the map for the Byz and Portugal main empire. Entry point gozpel is refering to is, i believe, Varna, a size 19 city. We'd need bombers and carriers to take that right now.

edit: serious x-post removed image

 

[grahamiam]

"The big risk is the builder never holds the election."

Exactly!

That will happen if we succeed dogpiling Henry, he won't hold any elections and just fight until he can go to Alpha Centauri.

But IF we find a way to take the city and also hold it for a turn, we have a chance. The problem is if we use bombers we can destroy the Wonder and we're in Nomansland.

I think we should try to get that Byz city nearest us, SE of Portugal and create a base. If we raze it (preferably) or just take it doesn't matter, as long as we can get a foothold on the continent. From here we can make peace with Byz's and work on the dogpile. A bunch of airfields would give us defense until we can hurt him enough to go at the UN-city.

Or am I too optimistic?

i thought that as long as the AI had 1 country voting for it (China in this case), it would hold a UN election.

if that's not true, then we might as well try getting the byz metro. we are about 5T from a careful steal attempt on carthage for mass production (escort ships). We would probably need 7-8 more for a steal on Flight or MT from others with the Korean payments ending (113gpt in 5T, 50gpt in 7T) . Probably could be sped up by trading our lux for lump sums of gold. This would make it about 20T till we have all the tech's we need, with only 19T to go till the UN vote.

 

[gozpel]

Yeah, I was going to edit it to VARNA.

But here we go, with my slow outback server and everyone runs in circles around me when I think

They can't be strong on defense now, dogpiles as they are and a scrutiny of the city is valid.

We will anyhow, have a decent force to protect it and the airfields around it. I think it's our best bet right now, if noone can outsmart me and give a different offer.

 

[gozpel]

China would go for us if we MPP them and then create the dogpile.

We can't afford Henry to hold the vote.

 

[grahamiam]

actually, if we take that Byz city, then we'll have to hold on and wait till the damn building is finished. total turns would be about 59. till the 2nd vote. If Portugal is doing 4T research, we could expect them to get lots of spaceship techs by then. hopefully, they won't build all the parts build before we take out Lisbon and destroy Apollo. However, I wouldn't totally discard the UN try as we'll need to be at war and have everyone one else involved too to prevent him from possibly winning the vote.

Are we seeing the massive amount of privateers we saw before or have they been swept from the oceans?