Building Great Wonders at Monarch level

[Divaythsarmour]

I'm still struggling at Monarch level. In my last 5 games I've only managed to build two of the great wonders. In one game I built Smith's Trading Co. and in several games when I had ivory, I've built the Statue of Zeus.

It appears that the other civs have a significant advantage in that they seem to be able to build the wonders, send out waves of settlers and amass large armies, while I'm struggling just to expand.

Is this typical or am I missing something?

 

[del62]

My preference now, is not to build wonders but settler, and concentrate on research

If you know how to set up a settler factory, there is no reason why you cant get more cities on Monarch, which means more tech?

Do you use the republic slingshot, this should be easaily acheivable on monarch assuming no goody huts?

Once in republic given a reasonable start you should be able to steam ahead tech wise

 

[vmxa]

They only have a 10% bonus, so you should be able to match that fairly soon, on a decent start. If you want a given wonder, then concentrate on it.

If it is one of the early ones, you need to build up your wonder city. Have workers mine all the tiles that can be used and still feed the place. Maybe add in a worker or two, once the tiles are improved.

On cont/pan maps a useful wonder could be Sun Tzu. So start a pre build far enough out to be quite a ways along, when the tech is finally learned. To me Smith's is not an important wonder, as I do not make a lot of banks. If you do, then it is impotant.

It also requires I learn an optinal tech as I am trying to get to Steam quickly, so that lowers the odds I would go for it.

 

[Aabraxan]

At Regent, building costs are the same for the AI as they are for the human player. At Monarch, the AI gets a 90% build cost (IIRC), so the GLib (400 shields) only costs them 360 shields. The same goes for everything else they build. However, with a little planning and good use of workers and prebuilds, you can still grab the wonders. I don't generally build that many wonders unless I get an SGL. I usually focus on workers, settlers and military.

With all of that said, you might need to be a little more selective at Monarch than you had to be at lower levels about what wonders you want. Don't build wonders that don't help your chosen victory condition, except maybe if you snag an SGL. For early wonders, you can use the palace, walls, granaries, libraries, markets, and all sorts of other stuff for prebuilds. Later in the game, armies, ICBMs, and other wonders also make pretty good prebuilds.

 

[Bucephalus]

I would add that Wonder fixation is probably one of the things that slow down a players improvement. For example, I've seen many lower level players posting that, having moved up a level, they are constantly falling behind in tech because they can no longer guarantee being first to the Great Library.

Wonders can be useful, but it's important to learn how to manage without them lest they become a crutch.

 

[CommandoBob]

Wonders are great when you need them. And they have a lot of nice benefits; free barracks and granaries, for instance.

But only one lets you win the game and that is the UN.

Is this typical or am I missing something?

Hard to say. Could you post a save from this game? It could be that you are expecting too much from civ and it is not strong enough to do what you want.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Are you winning despite not getting the wonder?

The wonders are fun but as it's been said, not game winning.

If you really want one (or all of them) using the prebuild strategy is helpful. Start an expensive improvement or palace for example and when the tech is available, switch to the desired wonder. The AI won't do this and if lucky, you can get the jump on them. The danger comes with the "cascade" where someone complets a wonder that lots of civs are building and everyone switches over with lots of accumulated shields. I've read some funny stories/succession games where someone builds a 300 shield library or temple when beaten out to a wonder with nothing big to switch to.

I can't remember who on the forums said it, "I'd rather build 14 swordsmen and take the pyramids than build them"

 

[creamcheese]

If you like fighting, don't listen to me. This is coming from a hardcore builder. Assuming: standard size, 70%continents, restless barbs, average other settings.

Personally I have no problem building whatever wonders I choose to on Monarch. Any higher difficulty and you have to get a little choosy, but if you are careful and are willing to forgo a little land, can net all of the wonders after the ancient age. The key is prebuilds, tech lead, and 'breaking' the ancient age cascade.

I try to net as many of the wonders that last the whole game as I can [or that are useful/good sheild return], usually the Pyramids, the Mausoleum, and maybe the SoZ if I have Ivory. If you forego all lame military techs and go alphabet >writing >CoL >Philosophy you can get republic as your free tech and switch often before 1000BC. On monarch the AI wastes enough time on the other techs you will almost always be first to philosophy if you go for it. Goody huts can be about the only way an AI will get there too quickly.

Anyway, you should probably build your ancient age wonders in your capital, for lack of corruption if nothing else, plus it might help you contend for a 20k later on. Then the KEY is to prebuild sun-tzu's very early! If you are an early republic via slingshot, you should be in the middle ages 10-20 turns before the AI, assuming you traded with them very little. If you can net sun-tzu's before they even make it to feudalism, you're set. The timing of the AI wonders means they will have finished all the ancient age wonders before they get to leonardo's/sistine/Knights, netting you all of these useful wonders [dont forget your prebuilds for them!]. With your early republic, and maybe even the scientific trait, you can easily out tech the AI, which means you'll get those wonders first, b/c the AI doesn't know about prebuilds. All you have to do is stay either way ahead in tech or at parity, and you get every wonder that's left.

Some people say building wonders is a waste of sheilds, but on monarch or lower, a peaceful type really can build most of them if they want to...

If you get the wonders I do on monarch, you'll have free: granaries, barracks, hydro plants. maintenance free: banks, markets, stock exchanges, harbors, airports, commercial docks. PLUS: half price upgrades [worth it's weight in gold, literally], two extra content in all cities, double effect cathedrals, crusaders, a crazy hospital/cathedral/culture hybrid, +1 naval movement, lots of extra science in one city, low war weariness, two more free techs, the UN, nukes, etc...
Basically any victory condition you choose, except maybe 100k, is easy to reach, plus you are rolling in wonders.

The above has been used by me in almost all of my monarch level games, works great with a little practice. I think I'm wonder addicted

Edit: playing scientific civs might help you a lot, a scientific leader can net you a free wonder.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I would add that Wonder fixation is probably one of the things that slow down a players improvement. For example, I've seen many lower level players posting that, having moved up a level, they are constantly falling behind in tech because they can no longer guarantee being first to the Great Library.

Wonders can be useful, but it's important to learn how to manage without them lest they become a crutch.

Ision's wonder addiction article was quite good. I remember when I first started playing at Chieftain and Warlord, I read up on the wonders. I thought, "man, the Great Library is terrific." Then I started to play . . . My love affair lasted 1/3 of a game. I traded techs like mad and discovered I could trade for whatever I didn't have.
I'm always surprised so many new players get fixed on the Great Library, but I keep seeing it. My crutch, I admit, is the Statue of Zeus. Get ivory, prebuild and grab it.

Wonders are often a crutch in CivIV as well.

I propose a simple rule for the Great Library - only build it if you really know what you are doing.

 

[TheOverseer714]

The real use for the GLib is shutting science down so you can have a huge military and grab the space for future specialist farming.

 

[Spoonwood]

The key question to ask when considering wonders comes as "What victory condition do you want?" Building wonders by hand in Conquests for a

20k game: Almost of them make sense, but you generally want higher culture wonders which cost you less shields first. Plenty of exceptions to this do exist, such as delaying to build the Great Library until you have other ancient age wonders finished. It still works as a good rule of thumb though.

100k game: The Temple of Artemis, and the Pyramids.

Space: Cope's, Newton's, the Theory of Evolution, Hoover's Dam, and SETI. Possibly also the U. N. and the Internet. Maybe also the military great wonders. Cope's and Newton's also make less sense on larger maps, where earlier military might work as better in terms of finish date.

Diplomatic: Cope's, Newton's, the Theory of Evolution, and the U. N.

Conquest/Domination: Only the small wonders of the Military Academy, Heroic Epic, and the Pentagon.

Ision's article and rules more-or-less fits the context of playing for a conquest or domination game best. I believe he also wrote it with Vanilla in mind. It doesn't fit so well for a 20k game in Conquests.

 

[del62]

I would add to what spoon wood says that if you have a science related goal particularly on smaller map sizes, i.e. spaceship or diplomatic, then cheaper ancient age wonders can help, particularly the colossus (given the right location) in low corruption cities.

If you get an early SGL on whatever goal, I recommend the pyramids

 

[Spoonwood]

Good point del62. Ancient age wonders can become tourist attractions. But, in a space game, which works better in terms of researching faster in an empire-wide game... a tourist attraction, or the number of units that one could have produced to get more cities earlier for research?

 

[Bucephalus]

Good point del62. Ancient age wonders can become tourist attractions. But, in a space game, which works better in terms of researching faster in an empire-wide game... a tourist attraction, or the number of units that one could have produced to get more cities earlier for research?

I think that's a bit simplistic, Spoons; in weighing up which is better, you are neglecting to include the benefit that the Wonder conveys in addition to it's tourist income.

For example, if the Wonder in question was the Pyramids, then you must consider the doubled growth speed of your core cities (with the consequent increase in commerce) against the dozen or so swords which may or may not secure a significant number of (probably semi-corrupt) cities.

I think this would be increasingly true at higher levels, where a) your military would be less likely to secure a significant number of cities, and b) corruption would render them less valuable.

 

[Spoonwood]

I think that's a bit simplistic, Spoons; in weighing up which is better, you are neglecting to include the benefit that the Wonder conveys in addition to it's tourist income.

For example, if the Wonder in question was the Pyramids, then you must consider the doubled growth speed of your core cities (with the consequent increase in commerce) against the dozen or so swords which may or may not secure a significant number of (probably semi-corrupt) cities.

I think this would be increasingly true at higher levels, where a) your military would be less likely to secure a significant number of cities, and b) corruption would render them less valuable.

Yeah, I did make that a bit too simplistic. We probably want more to compare how many settlers and workers you can get out in comparison to the cost of the wonder, and how long it takes to double. Of course you know that means hand-building the Pyramids probably won't work out so well, since you'll grab less territory initially that way. In other words a smaller core, or later libraries in your core at least.

Please note that Bucephalus addressed a hypothetical which I oversimplified. He did NOT advise building the Pyramids by hand, especially at higher levels.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Do captured wonders become tourist attractions? Does the clock start when built or when captured?

 

[TheOverseer714]

I believe the clock starts when the wonder is built, and the tourist income goes to the new owner. Unfortunately, most AI wonder-capable cities are too far from your capital to gain much benefit.

 

[Spoonwood]

Tourist capital doesn't corrupt.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

Could you post a save from this game? It could be that you are expecting too much from civ and it is not strong enough to do what you want.

That's a great idea. I think I'll start a new game and play up to a point where I'm frustrated. Then I'll save the game and post it.

There are a lot of great responses to my thread. Just to know that at Monarch level the AI get's a 10% build bonus is helpful. I would assume that there are other bonuses as well, i.e. maintenance, research, corruption etc.

I have had some success in games where I focus solely on expansion in the beginning. I need to improve on the strategy. By the time my borders are getting close to the AI borders, one or more of the AI's declare war and hit me with a ton of units. My outlying cities are never prepared for the invasion.

I've noticed that building a lot of workers is helpful. I use some to improve terrain in the cities and some to connect and build roads.

At this point, I can't say that any outcome is certain for me at Monarch level.

I do believe that the AI is harder to beat in Civ3 than Civ4. It does a lot of tricky things... It sees opportunities and takes them (like a human being would). One example is how the AI will take a single unit and use it to interrupt the path that your settler and spearman are taking to go to where you want .. (Because you can't occupy the same square). Then you'll see them drop their own settler and spearman into that tile that you were going for . Another example is how they'll probe your defenses and steal an undefended city. That never happens in 4.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . .I've noticed that building a lot of workers is helpful. I use some to improve terrain in the cities and some to connect and build roads.

Yes, it is. IMO, one of the most common mistakes that new players make is not building enough workers. We see it over and over in the "Newbie needs help" threads. Workers and worker management are one of the areas in which a human can really outperform the AI. Don't overlook opportunities to buy slaves from the AI, either. The AI is fairly notorious for never building enough workers, and if you buy all of their workers, those slaves get to come improve your land rather than the AIs.