Building Obsoleteness review?

[raxo2222]

New sevopedia modmod allows for very quick building browsing.

Now sevopedia can be used for example if given buildings obsoletes without long wait.
For example there is following chain: Industrial Basket Factory requires medieval Basket Masters Workshop which requires prehistoric Basket Weaver.
These requirements should be changed with replacements.
Basket Weaver then could get obsolete when Basket Factory is unlocked, and Basket Masters Workshop could get obsolete when group of factories including basket factory gets their megabuilding.

If there is building X which doesn't belong to chain, that requires something from building chain, then it should have or requirements with all chain buildings, that are buildable before X gets obsolete.
So if there is for example wonder, that requires bead maker and never obsoletes, then their "or" requirements should be bead workshop, bead factory and megafactory building, that produces beads among other goods.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

New sevopedia modmod allows for very quick building browsing.

Now sevopedia can be used for example if given buildings obsoletes without long wait.
For example there is following chain: Industrial Basket Factory requires medieval Basket Masters Workshop which requires prehistoric Basket Weaver.
These requirements should be changed with replacements.
Basket Weaver then could get obsolete when Basket Factory is unlocked, and Basket Masters Workshop could get obsolete when group of factories including basket factory gets their megabuilding.

I just changed it to this way after v37 came out. Each requires a number of the earlier to be built thus reducing the number of cities that can build the factory. People were complaining that every building could be built in every city this was a suggestion to fix that. It is in the My_Mods folder called Bead_Toy_Pottery. I also adjusted the returns to make theme cumulative ie a city with all three now only produced as much as the Factory level building did before.

Each Factory requires 2 (adjusted) of the Workshops versions and each of them need 2 (adjusted) of the Weavers. This means that you can build a Weaver in every city, Workshops in half your cities and a Factory in a quarter of your cities.

This is done for

• Baskets
• Beads
• Glass
• Lacquerware
• Pottery
• Rope
  
• Toys

 

[Harrier]

I just changed it to this way after v37 came out.
It is in the My_Mods folder called Bead_Toy_Pottery. I also adjusted the returns to make theme cumulative ie a city with all three now only produced as much as the Factory level building did before.

Each Factory requires 2 (adjusted) of the Workshops versions and each of them need 2 (adjusted) of the Weavers. This means that you can build a Weaver in every city, Workshops in half your cities and a Factory in a quarter of your cities.

This is done for

• Baskets
• Beads
• Glass
• Lacquerware
• Pottery
• Rope
  
• Toys

I will try this out in my next game.

Do you intend to extend this to other factories?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It is an experiment. If it works it would be extended further. It has been there in game since just after V37 was released. I was wanting feedback before looking at other lines.

The other thing it fixes is the problem with resources going obsolete because you don't have time to build the new buildings that make it before the old buildings that provide it go obsolete.

 

[raxo2222]

Ah so its intetional design for these crafters/workshops/factories.

But there is like 30 different factories
also by time crafters (at its factory building unlock) would go obsolete you would have workshops, because there is enough time between classical/medieval and industruial/modern era
That is crafters being obsolete at factories and workshops would be obsolete at megafactories
Requirements would have to be changed to replacements.

Here's list of buildings, that never go obsolete except religious and space buildings.
Some buildings may have valid reasons to never go obsolete, and others could be missed and should be obsoleted.
Some of them have replacements, I guess they could get obsolete at second replacement unlock.
Others could get futuristic version of them - if any buildings require X, then it should require all replacements of X as alternative as long as replacements come before X obsoletes.
I feel like there shouldn't be any buildings from before Modern (or even Transhuman era?) era at end of Cosmic era except for space buildings - people at that stage of civilizations aren't anything like us, unless some decided to not get replaced with technology

Spoiler Prehistoric era :

Basketweaver Hut
Beadmaker Hut
Burial Platforms
Burial Tradition (Bone)
Crafts Hut
Jade Death Mask Carver
Lacquerware Hut
Lava Rock Quarry
Rope Weavers Hut
Village Hall
Wonder of Nature (all kinds)

Spoiler Ancient era :

Bazaar
Brewery
Candy Shop
Cothon
Forge
Glassmith
Granary
Graveyard
Grocer
Jade Mine
Market
Mausoleum
Mining Camp
Potter's Hut
Scarecrows
Slave Market
Tavern
Town Hall
Toy Carver
Warehouse
Water Pipes
Wig Shop
Zigguart

Spoiler Classical era :

Barracks
City Concuil
Costume Shop
Courthouse
Funerary Services
Library
Monkey Breeder
Sewer System

Spoiler Medieval era :

Bank
Basket Maker's Workshop
Beadmaker's Workshop
Doctors Office
Engineering School
Lacquerware Workshop
Mortuary
Potter's Workshop
Pub
Spymaster's Office
Toy Maker
University

Spoiler Renaissance era :

Biology Lab
Foundry
Garrison
Geology Lab
Hotel
Jail
Metropolitan Administration
Modern Embalmer
Modern Warehouse
Museum
Observatory
Physics Lab
Spice Voyage
Stock Market
Surgeon's Office
Zoo

Spoiler Industrial era :

Automobile Dealership
Basket Factory
Bead Factory
Big McDowells Restaurant
Broadcast Tower
Burgerworld Restaurant
Ceramics Factory
Cereal Mills Factory
Chemical Plant
City Morgue
City Park
Civilized Jewelers Store
Coal Fired Dynamo
Coastal Preserve
Construction Firm
Creative Construction Contractors
Dive Bar
Electric Lamps
Factory
Fire Hydrants
Fire Stations
Glass Factory
Greenhouse
Hospital
Hydrogen Generator
Industrial Park
Lacquerware Factory
MallWart Store
Mining Inc. Survey
Mobby Meats Store
Modern Granary
Modern Offices
MoonBean Coffeshop
Music Factory
Police Station
Porcelain Factory
Power Lines
Psychology Lab
Ranger Station
Reservoir
Sid's Sushi Restaurant
Skycraper
Standard Ethanol Distillery
State Park
Telephone Network
Terracota Factory
Vaccine Lab
Water Treatment Plant

Spoiler Modern era :

Advanced Copperworks
Advanced Ironworks
Adventure Tours Franchise
Areodrome
Aluminium Co. Research and Development
Aquafarm
Bacteriophage Theraby Clinic
CAD Studio
Clean Nuclear Reactor
Collective Farm
Commercial Airport
Computer Network
Desalination Plant
Design Studio
Fashion House Store
Fatty Acids Factory
Firedock
Food Processing Plant
Garbage Spaceport
Grand Areodrome
High Energy Lab
Hydroponics Lab
Intelligence Agency
Jet Propulsion Labolatory
Labolatory
Mall
Manufacturing Plant
Medical Clinic
MileHigh Travels International Franchise
Military Airbase
Military Base
Military Surplus Store
Missile Battery
Modern Earthworks
Molecular Biology Lab
Nucleic Acid Lab
Planetarium
Protein Lab
Pushbutton Automat
Robotics Lab
Rocket Fuel Refinery
Rope Factory
Safari Hunters Guide
Semiconductor Factory
Sponge Farm
Sports Shop
Supermarket
Surf Shop
Theremin Factory
Toy Factory
Ultimate Soldiers Trainer
Volcanology Lab
Wonka Confectionaries Shop

 

[raxo2222]

So there are buildings, that either should go obsolete or get replaced with nanotech/digital/AI versions or be merged.
Buildings on Information+ era probably are flexible enough for rest of time.
So for example there would be digital library/university or AI court.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Spoiler Prehistoric era :

Basketweaver Hut
Beadmaker Hut
Burial Platforms
Burial Tradition (Bone)
Crafts Hut
Jade Death Mask Carver
Lacquerware Hut
Lava Rock Quarry
Rope Weavers Hut
Village Hall
Wonder of Nature (all kinds)

Basket weaver, Bead maker and Rope Weavers Hut already mentioned. You can still find people who make these today. Individual crafters among the big brands.See My_Mods/Bead_Toy_Pottery

Burial Platforms and Burial Tradition (Bone) should be being replaced by Funerary Services. If not then they were missed. See My_Mods/Burial_Traditions

Jade Death Mask Carver is a Cultural trade resource. They should probably go out sometime in the middle ages but come back in with Archaeology and Globalization. Their function changes from cerimonial to art.

Wonders of Nature should be changing over time providing myth then science then commerce. They don't go obsolete but their use changes dramatically.

Village Hall and its replacements Town Hall, Metro Admin etc. are based on population size and are relevant from Sedentary Lifestyle onward. They should be more relevant in a democracy but they are places for both social as well as governance activities.

Lava Rock Quarry is relevant as long as concrete is used.

 

[raxo2222]

I made this for reference, and some of them just get shutdown because their requirements for some of them go obsolete.
Other burial traditios go obsolete at Compulsalory Education.
Jade Death Mask Carver loses its requirements at Guilds (Mask Carver Hut) and Plastics (Jade Carver)
Crafts Hut is replaced by Mall and Hypermarket. I guess it could go obsolete when Hypermarket becomes a thing.
Lava Rock Quarry produces Obsidian (map bonus) and Pumice (only source of resource, that isn't needed for anything), I guess it could be absorbed by Modern Earthworks megafactory, but on other hand its needed for Waterproof Cement Maker.
Buildings requiring Lava Rock Quarry would have Modern Earthworks alternative requirement if they don't get obsolete bofore it.

As for Bead/Basket/Rope/Lacquerware/Glass/Pottery/Toys crafter/worksahop/factory line it could be replaced by respective megafactories.

Also there is Peppers space mod human mods - that is humanity slowly becoming one with technology.
So basically all, if not most of currently non-obsoleteing buildings, that were unlocked before Information/Modern era should be obsolete at Transhuman/Galactic eras.
At Cosmic/Transcedant era only Nanotech era and later buildings should be still there (except for religious/space buildings).
Of course there could be like few buildings from each earlier eras, but thats all.

 

[raxo2222]

@pepper2000 so what do you think about total extermination of pre-information era buildings during Transhuman and later eras?
Few buildings per era could be left here.

I made list of all non-obsoleteing normal buildings (except religious/space ones) few posts earlier, but you would need to check in civilopedia what they do and obsolete them after they aren't needed anymore.

Some of them are required for other buildings.
Libray/university could get digital versions (and buildings that require them should require digital ones as alternative), factory/industrial park could get nanotech versions of them.
Something like courthouse, police or village hall line could get AI version as replacement.
So that is: obsolete what is not needed/replaced long ago and/or add digital/nanotech/AI versions of them.
Information+ era buildings are most likely roubost enough to be digitalized/natotech/ai enabled when needed.

 

[tmv]

I can see a few downsides to this: First of all, if we ever get to a point where later game starts are supported, you must be able to build everything you need from scratch. When you replace everything with later buildings, it is very hard to avoid a circle of dependencies.

Second, unless we talk about consumer products, gadgets are not replaced just because they are an old model. Especially not if that old model works. Engineers are trained (among other things) to use the oldest technology that gets the job done (this is actually a point where Star Trek is the least realistic - reference: http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Engineering.html).

Third, until we have a volumetric ressource system in place, modern buildings are often less effective in game (at least more polluting with little or no upsides). AI law enforcement should be a civic decision, not forced on the player.

Fourth, replacing is generally preferable to making anything obsolete, unless there are very important reasons to not use something anymore. (Oh no, my nuclear screwdriver is damaged, what can I do? The regular screwdriver is not cool enough for me, so I guess I just leave everything unscrewed.)

 

[pepper2000]

@pepper2000 so what do you think about total extermination of pre-information era buildings during Transhuman and later eras?
Few buildings per era could be left here

That's what I originally set out to do, and we still could. We have fairly complex building dependency chains, so there would be a lot of work to untangle them. Also, for cities that are founded late (or for late starts if we ever get them), there should be some starter buildings with relatively low cost or else it will be hard for those cities to grow.

My general rule of thumb has been that non-essential buildings should go obsolete about two eras after they are opened up. That kinds holds but can't be taken too seriously.

I do agree that more work is needed in this area. Just don't have a clear plan yet.

 

[raxo2222]

That's what I originally set out to do, and we still could. We have fairly complex building dependency chains, so there would be a lot of work to untangle them. Also, for cities that are founded late (or for late starts if we ever get them), there should be some starter buildings with relatively low cost or else it will be hard for those cities to grow.

My general rule of thumb has been that non-essential buildings should go obsolete about two eras after they are opened up. That kinds holds but can't be taken too seriously.

I do agree that more work is needed in this area. Just don't have a clear plan yet.

Well for prehistoric buildings only village hall would remain for example.
All buildings either get replaced or their requirements get obsolete.
Two burial traditions were missed - they meant to obsolete at Compulsory Edition.
I think you would need to look ingame on Sevopedia to easily see if this or that building, that never obsoletes, could be easily made obsolete somewhere.
I saw only couple buildings needed for a lot of other buildings: libray, factory, university, laboratory and few others.
There are five or so resource chain buildings (hut/workshop/factory), that could be obsoleted well after megafactories.

There is building list somewhere above.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That's what I originally set out to do, and we still could. We have fairly complex building dependency chains, so there would be a lot of work to untangle them. Also, for cities that are founded late (or for late starts if we ever get them), there should be some starter buildings with relatively low cost or else it will be hard for those cities to grow.

My general rule of thumb has been that non-essential buildings should go obsolete about two eras after they are opened up. That kinds holds but can't be taken too seriously.

I do agree that more work is needed in this area. Just don't have a clear plan yet.

There is a tag on buildings NewCityFree which is supposed to let a new city get a building free after a certain tech if it meets the terrain conditions. I used it to fix the problem with Colonists and Pioneers only working for the player(s) and not the AI.

 

[Rmi]

Long building lists are an issue. Making buildings obselete sooner rather than later might help a little bit in that regard.
Another idea is:

National wonders that put buildings in all cities.

A couple of wonders give free buildings a long time after you could start building them.
You could make a few of these wonders provide these basic buildings. Or even 'effect' buildings to help new cities. If you have those buildings replaced or lost quickly with the usual stuff you build it would only effect new cities. This could represent the vigor of the founders building their new home.

 

[raxo2222]

@Thunderbrd is it in your tracker?
You can easily check in Toffers pedia if building is needed for anything and if it obsoletes when it should.
There is list of all buildings above, that doesn't obsolete up to Modern era.
Some of them probably were missed, others are beginning point for chains, that go to end of times.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The mod I mentioned above while matching reality is not suitable for C2C so will be removed shortly. Pity, I thought it lent itself to a proper expansion into a volume system nicely.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Again, we're in discussions regarding what approach to use to building advancements and resources.

 

[sunrisereader]

It is possible to research radio making sheriffs offices obsolete before you research deputation that unlocks them they probably should get obsolete later.
The steamboat port goes obsolete at undersea warfare but the replacement is at coast guard that requires the undersea warfare tech.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It is possible to research radio making sheriffs offices obsolete before you research deputation that unlocks them they probably should get obsolete later.

Just changed but there's apparently some xml error in the svn at the moment. pending a fix. Seriously though, if players are beelining for Radio which is THAT far down the road from deputization then they have an extremely unbalanced approach to the tech tree and deserve a problem or two resulting from that.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Seriously though, if players are beelining for Radio which is THAT far down the road from deputization

The AI is doing it too. And it's not that far and the pathing allows it.