Building Wonders - Change

[Boris Gudenuf]

A. If you're beaten to the start of a wonder, your lost time and investment is considerably less than if you're beaten to the end. **Considerably**. Like, practically zero. Same goes for the frustration factor. Getting beat to the end is **FAR** more frustrating.
B. Yes, lots of random libraries, pyramids, cathedrals and universities have been built throughout history, but there has only ever been ONE "Great Library", ONE "Great Pyramids of Egypt", ONE "St. Basil's Cathedral", or ONE "Oxford University". You admit yourself that these specific wonders "achieved greater fame" or were "bigger or more impressive" than their peers. In other words, they are indeed one-in-history, unique ideas. That's pretty much the definition of it.

'Practically zero' investment to start a Wonder is only true if one assumes the current Civ VI system, in which the requirements to start are having a requisite Tech or Civic and terrain/infrastructure combination, none of which are particularly exclusive. IF, to start a Pyramid, you had to have a particular type of government with a God-King ruler, easy access to 1000s of tons of several different types of stone, water transport to get the stone to the chosen site, and a readily available labor force for a large part of the year, starting a 'Wonderous' pyramid would be a much different proposition. And based on your Civ's immediate need, using all that to build a stone Long Wall for protection might be a much higher priority than a Tomb!

Also, the Pyramid of Cholulla in Mesoamerica was larger than any of the Egyptian pyramids - as they said about the chicken, it Pays To Advertise, even when it comes to 'Wonders'.
Both the Museum at Alexandria and Oxford U. when they were built were only One among Many. Their 'reputation' came long after - centuries - they were built, which makes a case not for Building Wonders, but for Developing Wonderous Attributes to an Institution.
In fact, given that Oxford was not the first European University and even later had close competitors in Cambridge, the Sorbonne, Harvard among other similar institutions, a case could be made for building a Building and 'upgrading' it into a Wonder later by some mechanism.

I agree that by definition a game must have some element of competition or its just a sandbox. The type and manner of the competition in regard to World Wonders is what is the issue here, and how to keep the competitive element without what is, IMHO, a Fantasy element of assuming that someone ever set out to build a particular type of Wonder with particular benefits IRL.

 

[Zegangani]

So, nobody wants to re-create this mod to make it usable with the current version of the game? i wish I knew how to do that stuff...

Here you go: Uninterupted Wonder Construction [Revived]
Enjoy!!

 

[dsinsocal]

I'm posting here because you made a suggestion, and I disagree with it. It's not just that our solutions work separately, it's that I think yours is bad. There are few forms of peaceful competition in the game as is, and making wonders a race to the start would make for one less, while still involving lost investment. Your solution fails to completely address the problem, and actively make the game worse, in my opinion, so I'm against it.

A race to the finish were second-third-fourth (etc) place still come with a significant reward in the form the national wonder, possibly with other boons if finishing second or third (eg, first get the great wonder, second get the national wonder and an appropriate great person, third get the national wonder and a faith/gold/culture reward, all later ones just get the national wonder) is just a much better way of adressing the lost investment while keeping the game competitive.

I'm suggesting an optional add-on. You're suggesting (I assume) a fundamental change to gameplay mechanics. Two different things.

Why are you "against" an optional add-on? Do you post notes on the thousands of other add-ons telling creators that you're "against" their ideas too? Nobody would be forcing you to subscribe to the add-on so I don't really get your objection.

 

[Evie]

This is not a modding forum. That's a few more forums down (Creations and Customization).

This is a forum to discuss ideas on how we'd like - or wouldn't like - the game to change. If I see a thread here, I assume the posts are about proposed changes to the base game. And I don't like this one.

 

[dsinsocal]

'Practically zero' investment to start a Wonder is only true if one assumes the current Civ VI system, in which the requirements to start are having a requisite Tech or Civic and terrain/infrastructure combination, none of which are particularly exclusive. IF, to start a Pyramid, you had to have a particular type of government with a God-King ruler, easy access to 1000s of tons of several different types of stone, water transport to get the stone to the chosen site, and a readily available labor force for a large part of the year, starting a 'Wonderous' pyramid would be a much different proposition. And based on your Civ's immediate need, using all that to build a stone Long Wall for protection might be a much higher priority than a Tomb!

Also, the Pyramid of Cholulla in Mesoamerica was larger than any of the Egyptian pyramids - as they said about the chicken, it Pays To Advertise, even when it comes to 'Wonders'.
Both the Museum at Alexandria and Oxford U. when they were built were only One among Many. Their 'reputation' came long after - centuries - they were built, which makes a case not for Building Wonders, but for Developing Wonderous Attributes to an Institution.
In fact, given that Oxford was not the first European University and even later had close competitors in Cambridge, the Sorbonne, Harvard among other similar institutions, a case could be made for building a Building and 'upgrading' it into a Wonder later by some mechanism.

I agree that by definition a game must have some element of competition or its just a sandbox. The type and manner of the competition in regard to World Wonders is what is the issue here, and how to keep the competitive element without what is, IMHO, a Fantasy element of assuming that someone ever set out to build a particular type of Wonder with particular benefits IRL.

We can respectfully disagree. I consider the lost turns, with zero to show for it, to be infinitely more damaging than racing down the tech tree for a wonder and being beaten there. Ultimately, you have to research those techs anyway so you haven't really *wasted* anything. Losing out on a "race to the start" forces you to recalibrate your strategy, but it's not like entering the game 30 turns behind the other civs -- which is what losing out on a wonder at the end is currently like.

The absolute waste of turns is a huge issue for me, but it pales in comparison to the infuriating frustration. It pisses me off and I don't enjoy games that piss me off. I know for a fact that this mechanic infuriates a lot of players.

Like I said to Evie, I'm looking for an add-on. Neither of you guys is required to subscribe to, nor use, the add-on so your objections are ... curious.

I'm sure you guys have great ideas for a more fundamental and permanent change to the game. If your idea could be addressed in an add-on I'm guessing it would be by now. Hell, I'd be the first to subscribe to it and play it! I'm not against seeing your ideas put into play at all. Maybe they'd be great -- but they don't exist, to my knowledge. (if they do, let me know so I can try it out!)

This is not a modding forum. That's a few more forums down (Creations and Customization).

This is a forum to discuss ideas on how we'd like - or wouldn't like - the game to change. If I see a thread here, I assume the posts are about proposed changes to the base game. And I don't like this one.

That would be an error on my part then. I wasn't sure where to post this a couple years ago, and nobody corrected me then so I was unaware. I appreciate the info.

That said, my error aside, this particular thread is pretty clearly about requesting a mod; not about making suggestions about how future versions of the game should be programmed.

Here you go: Uninterupted Wonder Construction [Revived]
Enjoy!!

THANK YOU, Zegangani !!!

Much appreciated. I'll try it out immediately.

 

[Zegangani]

THANK YOU, Zegangani !!!

Much appreciated. I'll try it out immediately.

You're Welcome.

For future requests, I suggest you use the Requests & Ideas Thread.