Los Tirano
God-King
Sound good to me. Very rational, the spawning point for mercenaries does need to be defined, and changeable.
Buildings
- Thread starter Houman
- Start date
I dont like the fact that when you take a city a lot of its buildings are razed and you have to rebuild them.. It leads to situations in which you find yourself building a coloseum in a city that you just recently took from your enemy and its Modern Era.. What do you need a coloseum or a forge in modern era ? absolutely nothing..
here are my thought bout this issue :
1. Make buildings era dependent. Lets say you can build the coloseum till medieval era, and afterwards you cant.. In renesaince era some other building with a similar effect should be introduced. Cities which menaged to build the coloseum would be better, coz they would get +1 hap (you could do the same with forge and other buildngs).. Simpler(not better imo) sollution would be just to rename those buildings (coloseum-->stadium, etc).
2. I havent got a slitest idea, how does razing buildings on capture work, but it seems to me that when capturing a mature city you dont have to build granery and some other buildings.. but still most of them are destroyed. This has nothing to do with realism.. every building should have a % chance that during bombadment of defences or garrisoning troops it will be destroyed (max one building per one bombardment / attack). The % valu should differ according to building, ie factory, granery, barracks should have a high percentage (more likly to get destroyed), and buildings like theatre, colloseum, temple (which are not strategic targets) should have a better chance of NOT being razed.. Values should be adjusted for balance.
What do You think ?
here are my thought bout this issue :
1. Make buildings era dependent. Lets say you can build the coloseum till medieval era, and afterwards you cant.. In renesaince era some other building with a similar effect should be introduced. Cities which menaged to build the coloseum would be better, coz they would get +1 hap (you could do the same with forge and other buildngs).. Simpler(not better imo) sollution would be just to rename those buildings (coloseum-->stadium, etc).
2. I havent got a slitest idea, how does razing buildings on capture work, but it seems to me that when capturing a mature city you dont have to build granery and some other buildings.. but still most of them are destroyed. This has nothing to do with realism.. every building should have a % chance that during bombadment of defences or garrisoning troops it will be destroyed (max one building per one bombardment / attack). The % valu should differ according to building, ie factory, granery, barracks should have a high percentage (more likly to get destroyed), and buildings like theatre, colloseum, temple (which are not strategic targets) should have a better chance of NOT being razed.. Values should be adjusted for balance.
What do You think ?
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
@ noid
Forge is needed. You think fences are made in factories ? The beautiful ones not simple wire fences. Or locks or hinge. Forge is needed even in modern age, not to mention my armor is hand made not a factory crap.
Coloseum. Well lets think, what is colloseum for. Gladiators fought in it. It was not a battle arena, but more entertainment.
In modern ages we got spanish bullfighting pits, boxing gals, football (soccer) arenas, olympic stadiums. They are close to Coloseum, only differance is that we got entertainment with much less bloodshred.
Also you might come up with stables, like they are not needed in modern age. Well having stables, renting horses, teaching horseback riding, sports with horses and hippoterapy.
And renaming buildings ? Thats impossible, or will slow down game to 486 prcessor...
Also temples are not strategic target - say that to crusades against Islam.
And noid - you are saying that theatre is not a target in war. We dont have to search far. Terrorist threat. They attack everywhere, their goal is to terrorize and kill as many as possible.
And TR team mentioned that they will try to make razing buildings harder/slower when capturing it. Reading readme.txt as well as being whith TR in forums from August (TR 1.0) should tell you that Houman was trying to make temples harder to raze. But i dont care actually. I mostly raze cities
Forge is needed. You think fences are made in factories ? The beautiful ones not simple wire fences. Or locks or hinge. Forge is needed even in modern age, not to mention my armor is hand made not a factory crap.
Coloseum. Well lets think, what is colloseum for. Gladiators fought in it. It was not a battle arena, but more entertainment.
In modern ages we got spanish bullfighting pits, boxing gals, football (soccer) arenas, olympic stadiums. They are close to Coloseum, only differance is that we got entertainment with much less bloodshred.
Also you might come up with stables, like they are not needed in modern age. Well having stables, renting horses, teaching horseback riding, sports with horses and hippoterapy.
And renaming buildings ? Thats impossible, or will slow down game to 486 prcessor...
Also temples are not strategic target - say that to crusades against Islam.
And noid - you are saying that theatre is not a target in war. We dont have to search far. Terrorist threat. They attack everywhere, their goal is to terrorize and kill as many as possible.
And TR team mentioned that they will try to make razing buildings harder/slower when capturing it. Reading readme.txt as well as being whith TR in forums from August (TR 1.0) should tell you that Houman was trying to make temples harder to raze. But i dont care actually. I mostly raze cities
@anaztazioch
I think you didnt get my point..
1. I dont see how a "blacksmith" who made your armor or the guy who makes fences (i know what kind do you have in mind) ads 25% to Cracows production (buildings or military). Those buildings still exist in our times, but building them in modern era (rebuilding after a city capture was the case a had in mind) to get +25% hammers is about realism at all.
2. As to coloseums, its the same as with forge.. You dont build coloseums nowadays (at least not for the sake of entertaining ppl) You could name it a "arena in which games are held for the amusement of ppl" instead of a coloseum.. this aint TR..
3.There are some "stables" in Sopot, but i cant see how are they helping our military ? And since you dont use cavalery anymore, stables should be buildable only till industrail age ?
4. Temples arent strategic targets unless, they hold some kind of weapons. soldiers, comand post..
5. I was talking about sieges not terrorist threat.. terrorist can strike anytime, anyplace.. A theater, a school, a public restroom..
I know that those things are not top priority.. But if its TR let it be TR all the way
I think you didnt get my point..
1. I dont see how a "blacksmith" who made your armor or the guy who makes fences (i know what kind do you have in mind) ads 25% to Cracows production (buildings or military). Those buildings still exist in our times, but building them in modern era (rebuilding after a city capture was the case a had in mind) to get +25% hammers is about realism at all.
2. As to coloseums, its the same as with forge.. You dont build coloseums nowadays (at least not for the sake of entertaining ppl) You could name it a "arena in which games are held for the amusement of ppl" instead of a coloseum.. this aint TR..
3.There are some "stables" in Sopot, but i cant see how are they helping our military ? And since you dont use cavalery anymore, stables should be buildable only till industrail age ?
4. Temples arent strategic targets unless, they hold some kind of weapons. soldiers, comand post..
5. I was talking about sieges not terrorist threat.. terrorist can strike anytime, anyplace.. A theater, a school, a public restroom..
I know that those things are not top priority.. But if its TR let it be TR all the way
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
@ Noid
It is TR...
1. If we "eraze" forge, this will lower production in city by 25% in modern age. Thus tanks will be longer to build, or lower hammer cost. That wouls lead to many changes in units and i tell you its like searching a sign of eaten potato in poo.
How they do to military production.I dont know, i never were in a military.
But my brother is playing guitar, and he coult tell you how big in quality is the differance betwean the guitar made in factory and guitar made by blacksmith and carpenter.
Another thing is that what you do whith broken part in a tank ? Replace it of course
. But the broken part goes to forge or smelter. Forge repairs part, or unfolt into part of differant resource, than go to smelter to get melted than back to forge to make a new part or to factory to make even new part.
2. Well to tell the truth there was only one Colosseum. And it was in Rome. Others were just a fighting pits. So this should be a national wonder actually.
So colosseums werent build back than. Thats why i say colosseum is an entertaitment building like stadium.
3. In Crcow i know of 5 stables. 3 relaxation, 1 speciality (hippoterapy) and 1 for rent a horse. I know even a tribal village as Warsaw has few
4. Temples were a sacred places. There were a place of protection while siege took place. But Cristians on their Crusades pillaged, robbed nearelly all Jewish, Orthdox and Muslim temples they came across. So religion didnt took actually place. Only gold.
And you may think of "humanity" in a war. Not kill civilians, warn about bombardment to make civils hide in shelters. But did Hitler done that ? "humanity" is an ONZ idea, to make wars less horrifying, there fore more pleasurable and profitable.
5. I know. But note that every building is a good cover... or bad cover... depending if your hiding from rifle or ICBM... Also after conquest you got a time to make new citzens adopt to your rule. Some rebelions witch may lead to razing cities. Just look arround how Warsaw did look after Germans have conquared it, that take a look how it looked like after uprising.
Have that in your calcualtion.
Too many buildings are razed, but it doesnt bother me that much. Wonders are worser. After conquaring London the pyramids the dissapeared. All i wanted is Representation in 800bc...
It is TR...
1. If we "eraze" forge, this will lower production in city by 25% in modern age. Thus tanks will be longer to build, or lower hammer cost. That wouls lead to many changes in units and i tell you its like searching a sign of eaten potato in poo.
How they do to military production.I dont know, i never were in a military.
But my brother is playing guitar, and he coult tell you how big in quality is the differance betwean the guitar made in factory and guitar made by blacksmith and carpenter.
Another thing is that what you do whith broken part in a tank ? Replace it of course
. But the broken part goes to forge or smelter. Forge repairs part, or unfolt into part of differant resource, than go to smelter to get melted than back to forge to make a new part or to factory to make even new part.2. Well to tell the truth there was only one Colosseum. And it was in Rome. Others were just a fighting pits. So this should be a national wonder actually.
So colosseums werent build back than
. Thats why i say colosseum is an entertaitment building like stadium.3. In Crcow i know of 5 stables. 3 relaxation, 1 speciality (hippoterapy) and 1 for rent a horse. I know even a tribal village as Warsaw has few
4. Temples were a sacred places. There were a place of protection while siege took place. But Cristians on their Crusades pillaged, robbed nearelly all Jewish, Orthdox and Muslim temples they came across. So religion didnt took actually place. Only gold.
And you may think of "humanity" in a war. Not kill civilians, warn about bombardment to make civils hide in shelters. But did Hitler done that ? "humanity" is an ONZ idea, to make wars less horrifying, there fore more pleasurable and profitable.
5. I know. But note that every building is a good cover... or bad cover... depending if your hiding from rifle or ICBM... Also after conquest you got a time to make new citzens adopt to your rule. Some rebelions witch may lead to razing cities. Just look arround how Warsaw did look after Germans have conquared it, that take a look how it looked like after uprising.
Have that in your calcualtion.
Too many buildings are razed, but it doesnt bother me that much. Wonders are worser. After conquaring London the pyramids the dissapeared. All i wanted is Representation in 800bc...
Spartan117
Immortal
Great Idea, I am all for the colosseum as a national or world wonder.
Go Flavian Amphitheater!!!
Go Flavian Amphitheater!!!
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Spartan117 said:Great Idea, I am all for the colosseum as a national or world wonder.
Go Flavian Amphitheater!!!
Spartan117,
If i well remember, there was a mod in Civ3 that gives you "Circus Maximus" when you built X arenas, or something like that...
Flavian Amphitheather could be a good new wonder. Buildable when X colosseums are built, like the forbidden palace or shakespeare theather.
But what could be the bonus of such a wonder ?
The Frog.
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
World wonder Coliseum:
+1 gold per city, +1 happynes i city where it was build, +1 happyness in all cities with slavary, +10% chance of slave uprising, can be built only in classical and earlier, obsolates whith democracy or liberalism. 130% of pyramids hammer cost. Requires access to stone and atleast 7population.
Gold for sold tickets, happynes couse pple are happy when blood fly infront of em, more happyness when slavary becouse slavary makes more "volatiers" for gladiator fight. Rebelion chance couse Spartan was a gladiotor not "only" a slave.
National Wonder such as Red Cross, Oxford Univerity should have no happines in city where it was build and 99.853% pyramids cost. Rest tay same. But in World Map Rome can have like 4 cities (Rome, Sycyly, Venece, And the island west). So i say that most civs wont be able to build it up becouse they wont have enpught cities.
National Wonder like Heroic Epic.
Only gold and 75% of pyramids hammer cost.
I think Colisseum is best.
+1 gold per city, +1 happynes i city where it was build, +1 happyness in all cities with slavary, +10% chance of slave uprising, can be built only in classical and earlier, obsolates whith democracy or liberalism. 130% of pyramids hammer cost. Requires access to stone and atleast 7population.
Gold for sold tickets, happynes couse pple are happy when blood fly infront of em, more happyness when slavary becouse slavary makes more "volatiers" for gladiator fight. Rebelion chance couse Spartan was a gladiotor not "only" a slave.
National Wonder such as Red Cross, Oxford Univerity should have no happines in city where it was build and 99.853% pyramids cost. Rest tay same. But in World Map Rome can have like 4 cities (Rome, Sycyly, Venece, And the island west). So i say that most civs wont be able to build it up becouse they wont have enpught cities.
National Wonder like Heroic Epic.
Only gold and 75% of pyramids hammer cost.
I think Colisseum is best.
Los Tirano
God-King
Anaztazioch seems to have the most rational arguments here. The sports stadiums so many go to are the modern colliseums, forges are still around and helpful to production etc etc.
Renaming the buildings every new era is a little bit... anal. It shows a focus far too much on the pointless small stuff. As for losing buildings when a city is taken, the army decided to go a bit nuts, and thats the outcome, certinaly has historical precedent, occupying armies have always destroyed and pillaged. You can prevent this by not losing your cities. If it troubles you so much, play defensively.
Go more buildings!
Renaming the buildings every new era is a little bit... anal. It shows a focus far too much on the pointless small stuff. As for losing buildings when a city is taken, the army decided to go a bit nuts, and thats the outcome, certinaly has historical precedent, occupying armies have always destroyed and pillaged. You can prevent this by not losing your cities. If it troubles you so much, play defensively.
Go more buildings!
@Tirano
Im not loosing my cities.. I just dont like that after a war of conquest you have to dive it to micromenagament.. and occupying armies havent always destroyed and pilaged.. Lets look at romes expansion, most of the battles were fought and won in the open filed, and after defeating the enemy they just took control of the cities (there are exeptions.. Carthage for instance). Wars were often waged to gain control over a certien territory, reasource, city.. Not to destroy or anahilate all.. The longer the siege, the more attackas on the city, the more buildings should have a chance to be raised.. but if the enemy has only few week defenders, and the city is taken, i dont see why all, or almost all of the buildings should be destroyed..
Im not loosing my cities.. I just dont like that after a war of conquest you have to dive it to micromenagament.. and occupying armies havent always destroyed and pilaged.. Lets look at romes expansion, most of the battles were fought and won in the open filed, and after defeating the enemy they just took control of the cities (there are exeptions.. Carthage for instance). Wars were often waged to gain control over a certien territory, reasource, city.. Not to destroy or anahilate all.. The longer the siege, the more attackas on the city, the more buildings should have a chance to be raised.. but if the enemy has only few week defenders, and the city is taken, i dont see why all, or almost all of the buildings should be destroyed..
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
@ julko
@ noid
Check how Baghdad looked after capturing by US army. I belive this would be a good example of how much building are being razed even with "smart weapons".
@ noid
Check how Baghdad looked after capturing by US army. I belive this would be a good example of how much building are being razed even with "smart weapons".
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
No i did not check it. I told you to do this, as this is your idea. Bring up the chance of reduce amount of destroyed buildings after capturing city, by knowing what did the Baghdad looked after capturing, and how does it look now.
Also point out the chance of razing city after capturing, so that reduction from smart weapon can actually work.
Like having 70% chance of razing building for each building. And 50% reduction from smart weapons.
Now does this mean that smart weapons lowers by 50% [70%-50%=20%].
Or lower the chance BY 50% [70%-70%x50%=70%-35%=35%]
Understand ? Its your idea, make it grow. If we find it interasting and possible of implanting, many links, other ideas/upgrades of your idea as well as "referances" will show up.
Also point out the chance of razing city after capturing, so that reduction from smart weapon can actually work.
Like having 70% chance of razing building for each building. And 50% reduction from smart weapons.
Now does this mean that smart weapons lowers by 50% [70%-50%=20%].
Or lower the chance BY 50% [70%-70%x50%=70%-35%=35%]
Understand ? Its your idea, make it grow. If we find it interasting and possible of implanting, many links, other ideas/upgrades of your idea as well as "referances" will show up.
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
noid said:
As for this post.
Well you can fight and pillage improvements not attacking cities, and after some turns offer peace as well as some cities. But if given cities this way also loose buiding, than its...anal, as Los Tirano said.
Bagdad is not the best example IMO, coz its "the most recently captured city" in a war.. And we are talking about 6000 years if civ timelinie.. As i pointed out earlier on, untill the middle ages most of the battles were fought in the open field, and the outcome of the battles would decide about the future of the cities, villiges etc.. Ancients didnt have the siege technology to destroy whole cities with all building during sieges. Their machines were able to crush walls (sometimes) and kill the deffenders, not sistematicly raze all structures in a city.. (that was only avalable with the introduction of cannons). Sometimes after capture conquerors (like Mongols) would decide to raze/torch all of the buildings and slaughter all the citizens (to make a good example for the rest of the enemy citis, and make them think that resistance is not the best option).
examples
siege of Constantinopole : "On 29 May 1453, Sultan Mehmet II the Conqueror, entered Constantinople after a 53day siege during which his cannon had torn a huge hole in the Walls of Theodosius II. Istanbul became the third capital of the Ottoman Empire in 1453." - Wikipedia. No mention of the city destruction ? The church of Hagia Sophia destroyed ? no !! changed from christian temple to a muslim Mosq..(other christan temples were also made in to mosques) The city becoms the capital of Ottoman Empire.. I dont suppose they had to rebuild it from scratch..
Mongols under Temujins rule had were the typical conquerors i mentioned earlier.. They would crush all resistance in their way, and kill anybody that didnt submit to their will.. They razed and torched a lot of cities, BUT only after taking them in long siges, or after storming the walls.. They didnt have the means to destroy structures protected by the walls, only after breaching the defences they could wreck havoc and destrouction.
In my opinion CIV was made the way it is to avoid situations in which you take a mature city, wait untill resistance is over and quickly start producing military units and rush them on the civ you took the city from.. It might by ok from the gameplay point of view, BUT from realism point of view its bullfeathers (Czech Skoda factories producing german tanks, and taking new recruits from the conquerd land are only a few examples).
My idea how to change this is to make most of the buildings in the city stay after a capture, only long and "bloody" sieges should resault in destruction of some or most of the buildings (leningrad, stalingrad). If you are willing to implement the feature i would be more then happy to provide a detailed model for how i see it.
cheers
examples
siege of Constantinopole : "On 29 May 1453, Sultan Mehmet II the Conqueror, entered Constantinople after a 53day siege during which his cannon had torn a huge hole in the Walls of Theodosius II. Istanbul became the third capital of the Ottoman Empire in 1453." - Wikipedia. No mention of the city destruction ? The church of Hagia Sophia destroyed ? no !! changed from christian temple to a muslim Mosq..(other christan temples were also made in to mosques) The city becoms the capital of Ottoman Empire.. I dont suppose they had to rebuild it from scratch..
Mongols under Temujins rule had were the typical conquerors i mentioned earlier.. They would crush all resistance in their way, and kill anybody that didnt submit to their will.. They razed and torched a lot of cities, BUT only after taking them in long siges, or after storming the walls.. They didnt have the means to destroy structures protected by the walls, only after breaching the defences they could wreck havoc and destrouction.
In my opinion CIV was made the way it is to avoid situations in which you take a mature city, wait untill resistance is over and quickly start producing military units and rush them on the civ you took the city from.. It might by ok from the gameplay point of view, BUT from realism point of view its bullfeathers (Czech Skoda factories producing german tanks, and taking new recruits from the conquerd land are only a few examples).
My idea how to change this is to make most of the buildings in the city stay after a capture, only long and "bloody" sieges should resault in destruction of some or most of the buildings (leningrad, stalingrad). If you are willing to implement the feature i would be more then happy to provide a detailed model for how i see it.
cheers
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
I am interested.
But i dont know how to make it "ballanced".
But i dont know how to make it "ballanced".
