Buildings

[Spartan117]

maybe instead of being immune to first strikes which can be pretty overpowerful, units can recieve an extra first strike when then have walls or castles in place. So inorder to get these first strike bonuses one must build walls first, making walls and castles much more important and usefull.

That being said. A guy designed different castles. These could possibly used to be a Unique building for some civilization or possibly used as the fort graphic for middle ages.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187808

 

[WarKirby]

Good point a uniquer castle.

We need some variation in castle styles in general. It's strange that china, japan et al use medieval european castles.

WarKirby

 

[Spartan117]

Also regarding the wall debate. There should be some alternative use besides provided 50% city defense. If my culture provides say 50% cultural defense, there is no need to build walls. Which realistically doesnt make sense. So adding more alternative effects to walls would make sense in my opinion. It would make senese to add an extra first strike to units stationed in a city that has built walls.

Edit:

wall also adds a soldier citizen i believe. However i think there should be an addition to defense.

In the Realism world map, the map can be quite crowded in Europe so i think making city defense with walls a bit stronger fits reasonably.

 

[WarKirby]

The bonus from walls is cumulative with culture, giving you +100%.

Wall giving soldier specialist? I assume you haven't upgraded to warlords yet?

You really should.

In the Realism world map, the map can be quite crowded in Europe so i think making city defense with walls a bit stronger fits reasonably

Wrong. In a crowded area, where space and resources are limited, civs cannot establish a sufficient economy to support a large army, making them les capable of taking cities than usual. If you're going to go with this mindset, a reduction -not an increase- would make more sense.

However you are forgetting that there are other parts of the world too. Changing the walls will affect everyone.

WarKirby

 

[Spartan117]

The bonus from walls is cumulative with culture, giving you +100%.
Wall giving soldier specialist? I assume you haven't upgraded to warlords yet?

You really should.


Wrong. In a crowded area, where space and resources are limited, civs cannot establish a sufficient economy to support a large army, making them les capable of taking cities than usual. If you're going to go with this mindset, a reduction -not an increase- would make more sense.

However you are forgetting that there are other parts of the world too. Changing the walls will affect everyone.

WarKirby

ok you caught me, i have yet to play warlords BETA version
I was waiting for the GOLD version to come out.

If i have say 50% cultural defense bonus in my city, if i build walls they themselves dont actually do anything which in my opinion doesnt make sense.

Since the soldier citizen is not there anymore, then i think the first strike bonus should be added. this would decrease effectiveness of collateral damage just by a little bit and give a small little step to units defending the city which i think would make sense.

 

[WarKirby]

If i have say 50% cultural defense bonus in my city, if i build walls they themselves dont actually do anything which in my opinion doesnt make sense.

I told you before. Walls and cultural defense add together to give your total defense bonus. 50% culture defense + walls = 100% defense bonus

 

[Spartan117]

I told you before. Walls and cultural defense add together to give your total defense bonus. 50% culture defense + walls = 100% defense bonus

sarcastically speaking

no i told "YOU" before!!! just kidding but anyway.....

Walls and cultural defense add together to give your total defense bonus. 50% culture defense + walls = 100% defense bonus

That is just not so. When i read this I even conducted experiments with world builder.

Example:

in a city with 60% cultural defense. If i were to build a wall in the city, the resulting % defense is 60%. The walls dont add on to the city defense bonuse if its already above 50%. This applies to castles as well. Your city defense has a peak at 100% regardless of having origainal 80% cultural defense+walls+castle. The only exceptions is if i were to build the Aztec wonder(the name eludes me right now/the wonder adds +25% to all cities)
By building this wonder the maximum that can be reached is 125% city defense.

Conduct some test yourself if you dont believe me.


50% for walls + 50% original defense prewalled does not equal 100%

It equals 50%

50% for walls + 60%cultural defense does not equal 110%

It equals 60%

It doesnt matter if you have legendary culture plus walls and castles the maxiumum city defense you get is 100%

Which to me doesnt make any sense. So i think having "A single"(just one) first strike is deserving.

In conclusion what i originally said was right. If i have 50% from cultural affects, there is absolutely no point for me to build walls(i do not get any affect from them) unless i want to build castles.

 

[Hian the Frog]

sarcastically speaking

no i told "YOU" before!!! just kidding but anyway.....



That is just not so. When i read this I even conducted experiments with world builder.

Example:

in a city with 60% cultural defense. If i were to build a wall in the city, the resulting % defense is 60%. The walls dont add on to the city defense bonuse if its already above 50%. This applies to castles as well. Your city defense has a peak at 100% regardless of having origainal 80% cultural defense+walls+castle. The only exceptions is if i were to build the Aztec wonder(the name eludes me right now/the wonder adds +25% to all cities)
By building this wonder the maximum that can be reached is 125% city defense.

Conduct some test yourself if you dont believe me.


50% for walls + 50% original defense prewalled does not equal 100%

It equals 50%

50% for walls + 60%cultural defense does not equal 110%

It equals 60%

It doesnt matter if you have legendary culture plus walls and castles the maxiumum city defense you get is 100%

Which to me doesnt make any sense. So i think having "A single"(just one) first strike is deserving.

In conclusion what i originally said was right. If i have 50% from cultural affects, there is absolutely no point for me to build walls(i do not get any affect from them) unless i want to build castles.

Yeap, that's right. The best of your defense bonus (either cultural or wall+castle) is used in fight. Nevertheless, you can go to more than 100% with the wonder chichen itza (+25% added to your def, whatever is the best cultural or walls+castle).
I agree with you about the useless of walls when you reach 60% def with culture. I think it's not logical. Even the strongest cultural cities had walls. For exemple, in France, our capital city Paris had walls and strong forts until the first world war !!! They were destroyed during the 20s to allow the growth of the city...
In an other Mod TAM (The Ancient Mediterannean) if i'm right, cultural def bonus is low. That gives walls a more important usefullness.

The Frog.

 

[Ankenaton]

Yeap, that's right. The best of your defense bonus (either cultural or wall+castle) is used in fight. Nevertheless, you can go to more than 100% with the wonder chichen itza (+25% added to your def, whatever is the best cultural or walls+castle).
I agree with you about the useless of walls when you reach 60% def with culture. I think it's not logical. Even the strongest cultural cities had walls. For exemple, in France, our capital city Paris had walls and strong forts until the first world war !!! They were destroyed during the 20s to allow the growth of the city...
In an other Mod TAM (The Ancient Mediterannean) if i'm right, cultural def bonus is low. That gives walls a more important usefullness.

The Frog.

That is true about TAM. Walls take on a more important role in TAM because of the low cultural defense bonus.

 

[Anaztazioch]

... my post wasnt posted or erazed...

 

[Anaztazioch]

Long time no post here.

Well i got WTR and new building + ub.
But still missing something.

Like harbor required to build ships other than workboat and galley.
Drydock required to build oil ships.
Forge or Smithy (new building, but no idea for cost and who will make it) that gives free combat I or + 4 expiriance to all melee units and +2 to mounted knights (as they got stables also).
Fletcher (also new one) that gives +4 xp to foot archery units and +2 to mounted archery units (as they got stables as well).
Factory/assembly line needed to build Tanks and planes.
Chemistry (new one) to build gunpowder units.
Airport to build airplanes and have them stationing (dont know if made allready).

Any comments ?

 

[Hian the Frog]

Long time no post here.

Well i got WTR and new building + ub.
But still missing something.

Like harbor required to build ships other than workboat and galley.
Drydock required to build oil ships.
Forge or Smithy (new building, but no idea for cost and who will make it) that gives free combat I or + 4 expiriance to all melee units and +2 to mounted knights (as they got stables also).
Fletcher (also new one) that gives +4 xp to foot archery units and +2 to mounted archery units (as they got stables as well).
Factory/assembly line needed to build Tanks and planes.
Chemistry (new one) to build gunpowder units.
Airport to build airplanes and have them stationing (dont know if made allready).

Any comments ?

Hi man,

I agree with only parts of your idea. Such as a factory/assembly line to build all vehicules units. It's an idea we can think about...

The Frog.

 

[Anaztazioch]

What i mean is that Vikings mostly made their own wepons in their own hime, as blacksmith service was too expancive, his skill not much higher and their steel wasnt very good. That why i want to make smithy, not private one, but whith special steel obtained by head of nation not black smith and the smith will be also well trained and selected by head of nation, not a boy who think that being a smith is a good job.

Its also like in French in middle ages. France didnt had good armor, becouse they didnt have many people whith skill and quality resources, unlike Italian this city you conquared (forgot ).

And saying coments i meant something more creative than "yes"/"no".

But factory, drydock and airport are my "most" serious suggestions. + they dont need any special graphic customization. Only XML's edit.

 

[WarKirby]

Anaztazioch: I like all your ideas, though the numbers are too much. They would need to be cut down for implementation.

WarKirby

 

[Anaztazioch]

@ WarKirby

Any propositions ?
Mayby free promotions instead for xp ?
Or bonus to production units ? Like factory wont help you build walls... they rely more on man strength and resources, not parts made in factory, to avoid
- Hey boss, where do we install ATI x800xt on south wall ? From inside of city, or ouside ?
- Isnt that in north gate allready ?
- No sir, north gate has Aston Martin db9 lock.

 

[Hian the Frog]

@ WarKirby

Any propositions ?
Mayby free promotions instead for xp ?
Or bonus to production units ? Like factory wont help you build walls... they rely more on man strength and resources, not parts made in factory, to avoid
- Hey boss, where do we install ATI x800xt on south wall ? From inside of city, or ouside ?
- Isnt that in north gate allready ?
- No sir, north gate has Aston Martin db9 lock.

Hi man,

I suppose that WarKirby wanted to say is that the easier to create your idea is, the easier you could see it added as a true "good evolution" of TR.
Even if most of your ideas seem interesting, only one seem trully realistic: a factory as pre requisite to build all vehicules units (tanks, humvee,...). It's not very difficult to implement (i suppose) and would be logical.

The Frog.

 

[WarKirby]

Thanks for twisting my words Hian, but what I was actually saying is that it's a good idea in all it's aspects, but that the bonuses provided would be too powerful.

I think all of those ideas add realism, but the experience bonuses should be cut in half from Anaztazioch's suggestion.

Also, I think it should be a gunpowder mill, (prerequisite gunpowder) which would be required for musketmen, grenadiers, riflemen and cavalry. Becoming obsolete with assembly line, which would allow the gun factory to replace it, and be a prerequisite for infantry, marines, commandos, and any vehicle which has guns on it.

I've always thought it a bit unrealistic that a size 1 village could churn out a tank or a squad of marines given enough time. Building requirements for these units would add much more realism methinks.

WarKirby

 

[Anaztazioch]

@ WarKirby

gunpowder mill - that the word i forgot and used "Chemistry".

@ Hian the Frog

I understanded WarKirby's #34.
I asked him about

I like all your ideas, though the numbers are too much.

and i got answear

I think all of those ideas add realism, but the experience bonuses should be cut in half from Anaztazioch's suggestion.

So i dont think we misunderstand exept for that chemistry mill.

And implanting this doesnt look hard, only few changes in XML. Only need "commands" and can do it my self, but testing is other side. And XML alone isnt enough. But just to check how stables word (+xp to type unit [mounted in this instance]) and coal plant/nuclear plat (required resource). This way i will know how to make a factory give xp for mounted units and make it require a resource (this can be also used in making timber workshop you spoke in resources). Also its not look at crusader/mujahid, learn the command making it require temple, and paste that to tank.

So we will have a tank requireing temple and factory that gives mounted units free xp and recuries coal/uranium. From this its just lear how to change temple into factory and delate resource requiremant from factory.

I allready checked the "basics" in XML, but didnt look deeper to actually begain this.


@ WarKirby

I've always thought it a bit unrealistic that a size 1 village could churn out a tank or a squad of marines given enough time. Building requirements for these units would add much more realism methinks.

Ever heared of military bases whith the size of a city ?

Well its allready taken care of. See in reality people from smaller citoes go to bigger cities for training, and than go stationing in their home town [its in Poland]. Same this is "simulated" in CivIV. Note that big city makes tank in 4 turns, while smaller (1 pop) need 20 or more turns. Also smaller cities cant draft. So unless you point out something more specified i say NO

 

[Anaztazioch]

And a small beta bug in WTR.

After building Great Wall there are movie problems. First we have a new Fraxis movie of Great Wall, than we have TR custom Great Wall movie that stops in middle and its sound loops untill you click [ok]. Same problem might be whith all Warlords wonders that also are in WTR.

 

[Anaztazioch]

About hireing mercenaries this.

In Barbarian mod (Warlords original mod) you have a camp unit where bought units spawn, and you buy them via "close to" mercenary screen.

What im proposing is a building "fighters guild", that can be build rather fast and in every city, but there will be a limit of 1 per civ. Limit will look like palace. "Fighters guild" will mark a city where hired mercenaries will spawn.
"Fighters guild" could use modified/unmodified camp unit script.

Also "fighters guild" can be an improvement, but it will be harder to make 1 improvement for civ...