But they're all military targets, I'm sure...

[Little Raven]

Everything old is new again. Except the Romans did it better.

A high-ranking IAF officer caused a storm on Monday in an off-record briefing during which he told reporters that IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz had ordered the military to destroy 10 buildings in Beirut in retaliation to every Katyusha rocket strike on Haifa.

The officer said that the equation was created by Halutz and that every rocket strike on Haifa would be answered by IAF missile strikes on 10 12-story buildings in the Beirut neighborhood of Dahiya, a Hizbullah stronghold. Since the beginning of Operation Change of Direction, launched on July 12 following the abduction of two soldiers during a Hizbullah cross-border attack, over 80 buildings in the neighborhood have been destroyed.

Of course, the IDF quickly asserted that the reporters had heard him wrong. Or that the officer was wrong. Or something.

After the officer's remarks were published on The Jerusalem Post website as well as other Israeli news sites, the IDF Spokesperson's Office released a statement insinuating that reporters had misquoted the senior officer and claimed that the publications were false and that Halutz had never issued such a directive.

The IDF Spokesperson's Office later retracted its accusation that reporters had misquoted the officer and issued a second statement claiming that the high-ranking officer had made a mistake and was wrong in claiming that Halutz had issued such a directive.

Uh huh. One can't help but wonder exactly how a high-ranking officer makes that kind of mistake.

I think what's most surprising about this war (or not war, as the case may be) is how completely disorganized Israel seems to be. Nobody seems to know what's going on...and they aren't even making a very good show of it. First, Israel was going to break Hezbollah, (All the rules of the game will change!) now they're willing to settle for Hezbollah as a political player. (Ok, we can keep some of the old rules after all. Stop shooting us now, please?) The famed Mossad can't even seem to find Hezbollah, much less engage them. The Israeli airforce is doing a wonderful job making life miserable for the Lebanese, but the rockets keep falling, and even the IDF is now talking about reducing their accuracy, rather than stopping them. An international force is not acceptable. An international force is acceptable. There won't be an occupation. There might be an occupation. If there is an occupation, it will be different from last time. Somehow.

Given how Israel appears to be playing everything by ear, (for several reasons, most of them bad) I guess I shouldn't be surprised that reprisal is the only plan left in the playbook. There's certainly an air of tradition about it, and in times of crisis, people naturally reach for the familiar.

It isn't going to work, though.

edit - ACK! Double post! Mods....please work your magic...

 

[nivi]

It isn't going to work, though.

First of all, hizballah is the one the first said beirut=haifa. Also, remember that Dahiya is a hizballah stronghold, and citizens were orderd to move out of there by the IDF.

And the quoted part: But its working already, haifa got no rockets yesterday. Hizballah is sffering severe casualties (they aren't being reported, of course), and the world is leaning towards an international force in southern lebanon.

 

[Leonel]

Well those rockets do allegedly originate from the homes of families sympathetic to Hezbollah according to CNN so I figure it might be fair.

As for mass reprisals, I figure it could work and when I say "it could work" I mean "I don't know if it'll work at all." But how else is Hezbollah going to be taken down if Hezbollah hides within civilian populations? Maybe the mass reprisals will show the Lebonese people what suffering Hezbollah brought upon them. That probably won't be the case and it could have the opposite effect.

Also when did Hezbollah turn into Hizballah?

 

[emzie]

There was an interesting thread on flyertalk.com that was linked here. It was the correspondence between an Israeli civilian on the northern boarder and a Lebanese civilian living in Beirut. I'm sure many people read it.

The one thing that has stuck with me though is that Dovster (the Israeli) made a comment about how right after a rocket attack on Haifa, the artillery stationed around his village began to shell the larger of the two Lebanese villages across the boarder.

The problem I have with this isn't that it's mindless retaliation -- the poster above me seems to think it's justified seeing as the civilians were ordered to leave! -- but that it's destroying Lebanese infrastructure that's taken a decade to rebuild. Way to destroy those apartment buildings in Beirut, IDF, I'm sure that will stop rockets from hitting Haifa.

 

[Asclepius]

First of all, hizballah is the one the first said beirut=haifa. Also, remember that Dahiya is a hizballah stronghold, and citizens were orderd to move out of there by the IDF. .

Who is Israel to 'order' Lebanese citizens out of their homes? Under International Law any armed force is responsible for the well being and safe passage of non-combatants. If civilians cannot or do not leave a combat zone that doesn't give the aggressor carte blanche to kill anyone who gets in the way. I believe the IDF doesn't give a sh*t about public opinion but it surely is losing the moral argument by quite so blatantly displaying total disdain for any life other than a Jews. Israel could have quite easily retained the higher moral ground in this conflict, if it had carefully targeted Hezbollah. It would appear that they have done nothing but provoke even more long term hatred from the rest of the Arab world.

 

[nivi]

Also when did Hezbollah turn into Hizballah?

Thats an arabic word (or rather, 2 words), phoneticly atleast i am correct.

"
The problem I have with this isn't that it's mindless retaliation -- the poster above me seems to think it's justified seeing as the civilians were ordered to leave! -- but that it's destroying Lebanese infrastructure that's taken a decade to rebuild. Way to destroy those apartment buildings in Beirut, IDF, I'm sure that will stop rockets from hitting Haifa."

Infrastrature that was built and used by hizballah, which the lebanese goverment did not deny them of it. Also, the lebanese prime minister told Rice to tell Olmert to "keep going", if their army wasn't strong enough to do this, ours will be happy to.

"Who is Israel to 'order' Lebanese citizens out of their homes? Under International Law any armed force is responsible for the well being and safe passage of non-combatants. If civilians cannot or do not leave a combat zone that doesn't give the aggressor carte blanche to kill anyone who gets in the way. I believe the IDF doesn't give a sh*t about public opinion but it surely is losing the moral argument by quite so blatantly displaying total disdain for any life other than a Jews. Israel could have quite easily retained the higher moral ground in this conflict, if it had carefully targeted Hezbollah. It would appear that they have done nothing but provoke even more long term hatred from the rest of the Arab world."

Hizballah is an armed force, i don't see them doing anything to protect citizens, in fact they delibertaly endanger them becuase inoccents deaths are good for them.

Of course it doesn't give us the right to kill everyone in the way, that is why we didn't just glass the villages that were hizballah strongholds, and cleaned them house to house while taking heavy casualties.

The IDF cares alot aobut public opinion, but when its Israel public against the world, the choice is clear.

Again, if we wanted to, we could have just glassed the villages, we have the firepower to do it, we didn't, and while civillians were killed, what could we do? They were in the middle of a warzone.

Oh realy? For the first time pretty much ever we see now the arab world is splintred between the radicals (syria, iran) and the moderates (egypt, jordan saudi arabia).

 

[aaglo]

Here's a newsflash to the all regime's in middle-east:

Stop being idiots, and start behaving like decent human beings.

 

[emzie]

nivi, what you say may have truth to it, but here's my personal take. I am and have been a strong supporter of Israel. I have no problem with Israel destroying Hezbollah, even with a land invasion. However, as soon as I first saw reports of indiscriminant retaliation (as mentioned in that article and in the thread I was following) my stomach turned sour. That's not a defensive action. That's revenge against people who may or may not even be members (though probably supporters... that's not a crime) of Hezbollah.

 

[Asclepius]

Hizballah is an armed force, i don't see them doing anything to protect citizens, in fact they delibertaly endanger them becuase inoccents deaths are good for them.

No, you are of course correct Hezbollah is acting entirely indiscriminately. However, Israel is a very powerful democratic state. It should be able to demonstrate that it is defending the rights of a free democracy with higher moral standards than that of terrorists. By indiscriminately targeting civilian areas it will achieve a very hollow, morally empty, victory. (If indeed it can actually achieve a victory)

Of course it doesn't give us the right to kill everyone in the way, that is why we didn't just glass the villages that were hizballah strongholds, and cleaned them house to house while taking heavy casualties.

You appear to be talking about the two villages by the border, but what of the entire flat complexes in the south of Beirut which have been razed? That looks pretty much like "glassing the villages" of which you speak.

For the first time pretty much ever we see now the arab world is splintred between the radicals (syria, iran) and the moderates (egypt, jordan saudi arabia).

Arab government support may be splintered but that is only because Hezbollah and the support they engender from their own populace, scare the living hell out of them. Jordan and Egypt are scared stiff by the ground swell of public opinion which demands they break off relations with Israel at the very least. Ever wondered what the peace between Israel and Egypt would be like should the Muslim Brotherhood be allowed to take power?

 

[BaneBlade]

What Israel does is terrorism if not aggression against another state under international law. It's so obvious every objective person will agree to it, but still so many people fail to see it.If USA and their lackeys wouldn't veto every UN resolution and boycott the Geneva conventions we would possibly have a multinational peacekeeping force there to get their damn heads straight.

 

[nivi]

What Israel does is terrorism if not aggression against another state under international law. It's so obvious every objective person will agree to it, but still so many people fail to see it.If USA and their lackeys wouldn't veto every UN resolution and boycott the Geneva conventions we would possibly have a multinational peacekeeping force there to get their damn heads straight.

The prime minister of lebanon is probably the most subjective person (in the other way) around (well, other then Nassrallah), and he actualy said to Israel (though Condi) to keep going. So...Yeah.


By the way, there were UN observers there (still are, i think), I suggest you read up on what those *******s did over there.

 

[Mr. Do]

Hmm, I forget, what's the first casualty of war again?

 

[nivi]

*snip*

It isn't indiscriminately targeting civilian areas.

Well, that was hizballah central, not just some area in southern lebanon where they live just to be among the population, and go out to bomb Israel.
That was their HQ, if you will.

I don't care what is the public opinion, if the goverments are able to keep the public from killing israelis, they can do what ever the hell they want.

 

[Che Guava]

...A high-ranking IAF officer caused a storm on Monday in an off-record briefing during which he told reporters that IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz had ordered the military to destroy 10 buildings in Beirut in retaliation to every Katyusha rocket strike on Haifa...

So if we figure out the rate at which rockets are landing in Haifa, and how many buildings are in Beirut, we should be able to predict the exact moment when Beirut becomes a historic rubble-pile....

 

[nivi]

Lets see, there have been 80 rocets on Haifa, that means 800 should be in beirut, ummm. I don't think that 800 have been destoryed, but I can only estimate, since the media keeps putting thge same imgaes over and over again but not showing the rest of Beirut which has gone pretty much unscathed.

Google earth, anyone?

 

[Sh3kel]

Hmm, I forget, what's the first casualty of war again?

Contrary to popular belief, it isn't the truth, but rather the first person to be in the path of a high-velocity kinetic projectile, be either a jet-powered explosive rocket, a metalic slug 5.56mm or 7.62mm in diameter or shrapnel from any explosive device engineered to kill or harm humans.

Need any more clarifications?

 

[Sh3kel]

So if we figure out the rate at which rockets are landing in Haifa, and how many buildings are in Beirut, we should be able to predict the exact moment when Beirut becomes a historic rubble-pile....

Yesterday?

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Contrary to popular belief, it isn't the truth, but rather the first person to be in the path of a high-velocity kinetic projectile, be either a jet-powered explosive rocket, a metalic slug 5.56mm or 7.62mm in diameter or shrapnel from any explosive device engineered to kill or harm humans.

Need any more clarifications?

The truth is the first casualty of war because if it werent than actions could not be justified.

 

[luiz]

nivi, what you say may have truth to it, but here's my personal take. I am and have been a strong supporter of Israel. I have no problem with Israel destroying Hezbollah, even with a land invasion. However, as soon as I first saw reports of indiscriminant retaliation (as mentioned in that article and in the thread I was following) my stomach turned sour. That's not a defensive action. That's revenge against people who may or may not even be members (though probably supporters... that's not a crime) of Hezbollah.

Agreed. But I refuse to join the choir of Israel-bashing with the CFC Stormtroopers.

 

[RedWolf]

I don't care what is the public opinion, if the goverments are able to keep the public from killing israelis, they can do what ever the hell they want.

That's fine - just no whining and crying when international opinion condemns you for it.