Byzantines: Take 2 Founder or 2 Enhancer?

[kamex]

Byzantines have the unique ability to do this. Which is better?

I'm trying to come up with a religion that is very profitable to spread world wide, and also quite quick to do so.

By taking two founders, I can profit more by spreading. By taking two enhancer I can spread much faster.

Combinations I have found so far:

Tithing (probably the best founder) + ?? (world church maybe?): Good profit from spreading even if not dominant.

Texts + Preachers: Fastest way to spread which I've found so far.

What do you think is the best way to profit from spreading your religion wide, and whats the fastest way to do so?

Moderator Action: Moved to G&K.

 

[LostKnight]

It depend on the situation. In one of my game, my capital had 3 wine ressources and my 2nd city had 2 more. Since I was already succesful in my wars, I picked the ones that give faith and culture per wines/insences and the + culture per plantations + monastery. That gave me so much culture and faith I could spam great person with fait and had to dunk policy into honor before unlocking Freedom!

Choose what you feel necessary, there is no *best* solutions.

 

[triheptyl]

Currently playing a Byzantium game where I took Tithe (+1 gold for every 4 followers) and Church Property (+2 gold for every city following your religion). I took religious texts and grabbed a few good faith wonders like Djenne, and was able to spread my religion like wildfire. By the Industrial Era I was pulling in 175 gold from religion alone. A very potent combination I believe.

 

[Monthar]

In one game I took Pagodas with 1st follower and Cathedrals with the Bonus. I also used my Liberty finisher for another Prophet so I could grab Mosques before anyone else did. Then I bought all 3 of them in every city as quickly as I could while they were cheap. That combo had me swimming in faith, culture and happiness.

 

[Polycrates]

I also found Tithes + Church Property were an excellent combo, that were pretty much paying for my empire single-handed. So much gold!

I sort of wonder whether taking Tithes plus the one that gives 100 gold the first time you spread it to a new city might not be a better option though. Not quite as good in the long run, but as Byzantium it seem you have to really sacrifice development to prioritise getting your religion founded early, and that would give faster returns for quickly catching up on necessary infrastructure.

For enhancer, I chose Holy Order, and I think this was the best choice in my case - getting 50% more missionaries out there really helps spread things far and wide, and I don't think Religious Texts' passive spread bonus is quite as useful when you're trying to mass-indoctrinate everywhere. But I'm not sure I've completely come to grips with the nuances of how best to spread religion, so I could be way off here. Also my experience is from large maps, and I'm sure it differs substantially on smaller maps.

For follower belief, Religious Community (+2 happy from temple in cities with 5 followers) was a fantastic choice that I highly recommend. You're bound to take the first two Piety policies, so you'll be building half-price temples absolutely everywhere anyway. And it seems to me that Byzantium favours going wide, so extra happiness is very welcome.

I took Mosques for my second follower; I think this worked out well because unlike culture, faith generation flatlines a bit after temples with no other buildings you can build normally to amplify it. This helps keep up with increasing faith costs, gives a bit of nice happiness, and is great for kickstarting border growth in newly-founded cities.

 

[Glassmage]

I take 2 Pantheon. lol

 

[DateOfRebirth]

I also found Tithes + Church Property were an excellent combo, that were pretty much paying for my empire single-handed. So much gold!

I sort of wonder whether taking Tithes plus the one that gives 100 gold the first time you spread it to a new city might not be a better option though. Not quite as good in the long run, but as Byzantium it seem you have to really sacrifice development to prioritise getting your religion founded early, and that would give faster returns for quickly catching up on necessary infrastructure.

For enhancer, I chose Holy Order, and I think this was the best choice in my case - getting 50% more missionaries out there really helps spread things far and wide, and I don't think Religious Texts' passive spread bonus is quite as useful when you're trying to mass-indoctrinate everywhere. But I'm not sure I've completely come to grips with the nuances of how best to spread religion, so I could be way off here. Also my experience is from large maps, and I'm sure it differs substantially on smaller maps.

For follower belief, Religious Community (+2 happy from temple in cities with 5 followers) was a fantastic choice that I highly recommend. You're bound to take the first two Piety policies, so you'll be building half-price temples absolutely everywhere anyway. And it seems to me that Byzantium favours going wide, so extra happiness is very welcome.

I took Mosques for my second follower; I think this worked out well because unlike culture, faith generation flatlines a bit after temples with no other buildings you can build normally to amplify it. This helps keep up with increasing faith costs, gives a bit of nice happiness, and is great for kickstarting border growth in newly-founded cities.

Cathedral is the best building, 1 specialist slot is much better than 2 faith

 

[thadian]

but isnt it an artist?

 

[Halcyan2]

I take 2 Pantheon. lol

Yeah. I also like 2 Pantheon (or a third Follower) over a second Founder or Enhancer.

 

[Polycrates]

Cathedral is the best building, 1 specialist slot is much better than 2 faith

In some circumstances, yes, but with the setup I detailed the primary point of the exercise is the maximum overall generation of faith through to the mid-to-late game. The Cathedral takes 3x as long as the Mosque to return its faith investment and then only gives 1/3 the faith profit. The Cathedral is essentially a faith sink - it would be an especially bad choice in this instance.

 

[TopGearFanatic]

Tithe and Church Property are a great combination.

 

[bonafide11]

Tithe and Church Property are a great combination.

Wow, another Civfanatic from St. Louis! I want to maintain my title as the best Civ player in St. Louis though.

In my first game of GnK and only game with Byzantium, I selected the Enhancer beliefs that spread my religion 33% (then 67% with Printing Press) faster, and the one that reaches cities 30% further away. That and the fact that I was wiping out rival religions made my religion adopted by nearly the entire map. It was awesome. Since it was my first game, I didn't realize that religion doesn't normally spread nearly that fast.

 

[Monthar]

I was thinking if you took Messiah (Prophets 25% stronger and earned with 25% less faith) as your bonus, you'd get your 2nd prophet a lot faster to enhance the faith with. Then you can use the prophets you'll generate to spread the faith. If you're going to go Piety, you could settle those Prophets, because when Piety is completed those Holy Sites will add 3 gold and 3 culture to the mix. So not only will you be generating a lot more faith, you'll generate a lot more gold and culture. Plus completing Piety also reduces the faith cost to buy units/buildings by 20%

So taking Messiah with the bonus, going Piety and taking the Holy Order (30% cheaper missionaries/inquisitors) for the enhance, that should make them to about 50% cheaper after Piety is finished. This frees up even more faith for buying the Mosques.

I do prefer the Pagodas because they are the only one of the 3 with 2 happiness.

 

[kamex]

I was thinking if you took Messiah (Prophets 25% stronger and earned with 25% less faith) as your bonus, you'd get your 2nd prophet a lot faster to enhance the faith with. Then you can use the prophets you'll generate to spread the faith. If you're going to go Piety, you could settle those Prophets, because when Piety is completed those Holy Sites will add 3 gold and 3 culture to the mix. So not only will you be generating a lot more faith, you'll generate a lot more gold and culture. Plus completing Piety also reduces the faith cost to buy units/buildings by 20%

So taking Messiah with the bonus, going Piety and taking the Holy Order (30% cheaper missionaries/inquisitors) for the enhance, that should make them to about 50% cheaper after Piety is finished. This frees up even more faith for buying the Mosques.

I do prefer the Pagodas because they are the only one of the 3 with 2 happiness.

An interesting idea, although I personally often prioritize HS for the second prophet. Unfortunately that increases the cost of the third.

 

[Wuddel]

I'd go for Religious Texts and Itinerant Preachers and you do not even have to bother with missionaries/prophets and take buildings in the follower two slots. I always go with Pagodas for the happiness.

 

[Nyanko]

Yeah. I also like 2 Pantheon (or a third Follower) over a second Founder or Enhancer.

If you take a third follower, for example, Holy Warriors, Does that mean the other nations can use the follower belief too? Or is it exlusive to you?

 

[Huaojozu]

It depends. If I can reasonably take a pantheon other than +10% growth, I might spend the extra belief on that +10% growth since I am a tall-empire kind of guy.

On the other hand, if no terrain-specific pantheon is appropriate, I will take Tithe and Ceremonial Burial so that I am covered both money and happiness-wise.

I don't find follower beliefs that interesting other than +growth and +production and Religious Texts is really all you need as an enhancer anyway.

 

[Trik]

Prophets and missionaries become redundant pretty fast so i avoid getting those beliefs, Going for the gold belief is always my priority. You can always buy what you need, even happiness lol.

Right now my favorite strategy is to go liberty and beeline theology, then hard build the Great mosque of Djenne and use the liberty GE to pop the HS for my second prophet(or use the GE for the mosques depending on how far i think the other civs are). That way i get a fast enhanced religion and stronger missionaries without wasting a belief for them.

 

[Gliese 581]

I would probably take a second pantheon or third follower it seems to me in general the founder/enhancer options are weaker than those.

 

[bhavv]

Cathedral is the best building, 1 specialist slot is much better than 2 faith

Only for a culture game or Sejong. For all else, Pagodas are better.