1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

C Bows (Mathematics) vs Sword/Cat (Iron Working)

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,248
    So I've tried several different kinds of military classical rushes after the tech change. One flavor is rushing to C Bows in mathematics and using them with Spearmen.

    The other is going Iron Working to pick up swords and catapults.

    Playing on Immortal, imo the c bow plays seem a lot stronger overall. My issue is that against the AI I'm going to have a lot of units to deal with, a c bows handles that a lot more efficiently than swords and catapults do.

    Further, I think mathematics is a more favorable tech, especially its prereqs like calendar.

    Lastly, I had several cases where I will go into long sieges, only to have my army hits with knights before I get them. I have found that with some fancy play I can use the c bows to soften them up and find ways to deal with them...but my sword/cat army just gets wrecked by them.

    Has anyone had better successes with sword/cat on higher difficulties, or do you often use c bows for this era of rushes?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  2. ridjack

    ridjack King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    680
    The new swordies are great at their jobs; I haven't had any complaints about them since their most recent round of changes.

    You do make me realize, however, that I frequently don't touch siege units until cannons. Comp. bows don't take cities especially quickly, but they do get the job done. And they get critical XP for promotions, which I care a lot more about for the archer line than the siege line.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  3. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    768
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    Mathematics gets you access to 2 good Wonders; Iron Working gets you Forges and Heroic. Math units are better vs other Units; Iron Units are better vs Cities. I would go Iron if you see the AI is lacking Army, otherwise Math would be the safer play. I can't imagine not using Trebs to attack Cities that have Castles (and Orders), it will just take to long to Siege..
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,248
    Completely agree, my thoughts were around the classical siege window. Once players have Chivalry its a different ballgame and you have to adapt to a different war model.
     
  5. ridjack

    ridjack King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    680
    Can't say I'd recommend it, but it's definitely doable in a pinch. Honestly, though, once Castles are up I generally find myself waiting until the Renaissance for any serious conquering; I feel like the Medieval Era is tilted a bit in the defenders' favor. I consider Knights to generally be the unit in the game relative to their era (maybe second after Archers), and they're smack dab in the middle of the tree and pretty much everyone goes through Chivalry ASAP. Combine this with the fact that I'm frequently beelining Astronomy starting in the top part of the tree to get Courthouses, a hopeful religious wonder in Theology and my Writer's Guilds and it makes the Medieval a slow time for my wars. (Plus, there is no defense building in the Renaissance. Once Cannons show up, they dominate until the Industrial, AND you have to hit the bottom part of the tree for Arsenals.)
     
  6. Coffee Monopoly

    Coffee Monopoly Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    101
    Gender:
    Male
    I've had good success with catapults (the inferior siege weapon) and swordies in a recent Immortal game, which was actually my first time using either of those units. A conflict over map control forced me to declare on Japan at the start of Classical, and I had just gotten the tech mainly for the forge, since I had a mine-heavy start. I was surprised at how fast I was able to take cities with very few troops. They can work great if you get the timing right and exploit the window of opportunity you have before your enemy has classical units, possibly even before they get their walls up. So overall I'd say it depends heavily on your tech path. If going for early iron working makes sense, go for it. But not worth forcing it if you don't want to start bottom-heavy anyway. In most games you probably don't. In that game I was Russia, so the unique early synergy of UA, pantheon and policy helped a lot with science and production.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  7. andersw

    andersw King

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    879
    Location:
    sweden
    Depends what religious and wonder route I go and what civ I play.
    But I usually go crossbow+catapult+spear/horse for early assaults on Emperor.
    It usually rolls non authority civs on flatland but there are civs that can be problematic like Inca (op slingers and mountains), Huns (dangerous horse archers and Eki), Aztecs, Songhai but if I play well enough I can usually grind them down.
    Worst case was probably one with defensive location Huns where I started with cats and didnt break him until cannons.
    (But likewise current game Inca was unbreakable despite massive tech lead until field guns and indirect fire.)
    One of the better was capturing Chinas capital one turn after she finished great wall.
    But I can see its harder to keep up and be on time on immortal/diety.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,011
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    I don't do a lot of early offensive pushes (the one notable example I remember was with spears against Greece before they got their hoptiles on line).

    That said, I think the higher difficulties part of what you've said is notable. I've played across Warlord (in my very early days of VP) to Emperor, and the unit ratio really changes what strategies are viable/useful.

    When the unit balance is more even I would say that swordsmen rule (and that having catapults as well makes taking cities a cinch). But when the unit balance is against you, ranged units and careful play to grind down the enemy army a bit is always going to be necessary before going for cities. As I said, I don't have a lot of experience in this area, but that's what I've found. Spears do fine on the defensive, and C bows are a big upgrade vs archers. Swordsmen are awesome in their own right, but having the right kind of support/army composition is more useful overall. And C bows do that better than swordsmen + catapults IMO.

    I guess from my point of view that doesn't mean things are unbalanced, because swords and catapults are very useful on the mid difficulties - it's only on the higher end that things skew a bit more towards Mathematics for warring. Plus, like Phantomax said, Math gives you 2 great wonders which favours peaceful play, whereas Iron Working gives you forges and Heroic Epic which favour military. So that seems about right.
     

Share This Page