Obviously, I'm not as authoritative as @Stalker0, but I thought I would make this thread to share my personal rankings for ideology tenets and start a discussion about them, especially with the recent congress proposal about UI-boosting tenets losing by a tiny margin. On the whole though, I actually think the ideologies are in a very good place!
I'm going to use the same ranking system that Stalker used in his Wonder Rankings: S (OP/must get) / A (strong) / C (fine) / F (weak, or actively harmful).
I'll start with Freedom:
SpoilerTier 1 :
Avant Garde: C
- A good bonus, not crazy strong at this point of the game however as usually your GP-producing cities have a number of other multipliers so +33% ends up only functionally being +10-20%, and usually a civ going Freedom shouldn't really have problems with Boredom Covert Action: S
- While Coups are changing next version, with how strong they were for the past couple months this policy is an easy S tier. Gives you another spy and essentially guarantees Coup success, which can be upwards like like 4 free GPs. This tenet could easily end up netting you like 10 extra GPs over the course of the late game. Civil Society: S
- Absolutely insane growth enhancer, especially for civs with spammable UIs. Makes working specialists much more practical and helps kick-start the Freedom GP min-max Creative Expression: C
- Fine tenet, though maybe I'm underrating it as its effects are harder to directly perceive. It definitely helps more in wider empires though and is very strong for civs like Brazil. Draft Registration: A
- Great tenet. allows your cities to focus more on growth and thus working specialists and allows you to maintain a smaller standing army as you can raise a strong one quickly with this tenet. Possibly S tier for Venice or civs that have Forbidden Palace and Industry. Economic Union: C
- Fine tenet, the +6 gold from TRs with Freedom players is pretty tiny, but the 2 extra TRs are nice. Universal Suffrage: A
- Very good tenet, even with the recent GA changes. This combined with Artistry and either Chichen Itza or a GA monopoly can essentially ensure constant GAs in the late game.
SpoilerTier 2 :
Arsenal of Democracy: C
- Decent, but if you took Draft Registration you won't really be using prod to make units, and the influence numbers are mediocre Capitalism: S
- Maybe I'm overrating this one, but combined with Civil Society this is super strong. Allows you to work way more specialists and turns your science and gold to 11. New Deal: A
- Probably the most situational of the policies depending on if you went Progress or Tradition, or Statecraft or Artistry. If you went Tradition/Artistry, this is likely S tier. If you went Progress/Statecraft, this is likely C tier. Self-Determination: C
- Situationally very strong, but even then the units the CS get are still not usually strong enough for the CS to protect itself if you liberate it during a war. The XP and Science are really good, but its unlikely you'll have many CS that are readily liberated. Their Finest Hour: A
- Quite good, as it means you don't have to prioritize building Airports and the B17s themselves are super strong. Can get logistics or range instantly upon creation with either Brandenburg or Pentagon I believe. Transnationalism: A
- Both increases the floor and ceiling of your corporation, and the Towns counting at franchises is situationally super strong if most of your neighbors are warring you and/or go Order and get Nationalization. Universal Healthcare: F
- On paper it seems really strong, but the timing is bad as there are better tier 2s (and then a tier 3) to take before this so if I do take it the free hospital is only a maintenance saving, not a prod saving. The culture is good though.
SpoilerTier 3 :
Media Culture: A
- Really the strength here is from the +20% culture from stadiums. Its massive. The Tourism is also quite strong, but the happiness is pretty unimpactful. Space Procurements: A
- The gold needed to invest in spaceship parts is pretty massive making it not super practical, but the +20% science is awesome. Treaty Organization: S
- Probably controversial to put this as the best, but the influence from TRs is actually crazy, especially when combined with Statecraft. If I manage my TRs correctly, I've found that I pretty much don't need to build Diplo units.
Order:
SpoilerTier 1 :
Communism: A
- Just a solid policy. Synergizes really well with Progress and Industry Double Agents: A
- Not as good as Covert Action for getting Coups or flipping CS, but good at getting the Intel Operations quests and better for defensive/offensive spying. Hero of the People: A
- The Free GP is very good, and unlike Avant Garde, an Order player is likely to have few GP modifiers so the +25% will actually be quite strong. Patriotic War: A
- T-34s aren't as strong as they used to be, but are still quite good and the heal on city capture is fantastic. Peace, Land, Bread: S
- While the growth may look like a mixed bag at first, Order gives so many opportunities to reduce unhappiness and boost yields that you can actually allow your cities to make use of it. But the best part has to be the building maintenance reduction. That can literally be 100s of gold in the late game. People's Army: A
- The timing on this one is usually kind of awkward, especially due to the fact that it boosts two buildings on opposite sides of the tree. This is a really good unhappiness solver though, preventing me from putting it in C even though I kind of want to. Worker's Faculties: A
- Again the timing can be a bit awkward as you may have already built a number of factories, but the science is great and the free production and maintenance reduction are awesome.
SpoilerTier 2 :
Academy of Sciences: C
- Can be good, but as for the other free building tenets it can be difficult to get the timing right to make the most of it. And while any unhappiness reduction is good, I find that illiteracy is usually not the one I'm struggling with when going Order. Cultural Revolution: F
- Okay, but as an Order player the time when Tourism is the most helpful is during conquest, when it makes taking cities easier, which is also the time when your happiness is lowest. Thus, the policy ends up being fairly weak except for the rare situations where you're going Order yet a peaceful culture victory (like as Brazil). Dictatorship of the Proletariat: A
- Super solid tenet. Always a safe pick but never one that is overwhelmingly powerful. Five Year Plan: S
- S might be a bit high, but in the right circumstances this is like a 35% production boost in every city while its constructing a building. That's massive. Great Leap Forward: C
- Free tech is nice, but at this point of the game hard to strategize and also just not super strong in the first place. Nationalization: S
- S might also be a bit high, but with the right corporation and empire this policy is stupidly strong. Especially if your opponents have a lot of franchises in your cities and TRs with you. But otherwise this is usually just a massive jumpstart for your corporation, though there are situations where this policy would actually be negative (e.g. you have less than like 10 cities and no vassals, but if that's you, why are you picking Order in the first place). Resettlement: A
- If you can handle the added unhappiness from this policy, it is S tier. If you can't, then it is C or maybe even F tier. But in the right circumstances this policy is like +20-30 total yields in every city which is awesome.
SpoilerTier 3 :
Iron Curtain: A
- A bit situational but almost always at least decent due to the City Connection bonus. Order civs are more likely to be using internal TRs anyway, especially by the time you're getting a T3 tenet, so oftentimes this is just a straight buff with no management needed. The free Courthouse is probably even stronger than the TR bonus in their respective ideal situations. It makes conquest so much easier. This whole tenet synergizes really well with the rest of the tree (especially Nationalization and Patriotic War). Socialist Realism: F
- Probably a hot take, but I have never been in a position where I felt like working Propaganda was a good choice as Order sets you up so much better for Domination or Science. The prod from GWs is fine, but nowhere near as good as Five-Year Plan. Spaceflight Pioneers: A
- The free GE+GS and the science from GP expend are really good, but it is difficult to time GEs to finish spaceship parts in the late game and the +50% prod from hurrying is usually unnecessary to get Wonders at that point and thus really only means that you save a couple total turns building Spaceship parts in the late game if you can get GEs to rush them.
Autocracy:
SpoilerTier 1 :
Elite Forces: S
- Incredibly good policy, lets you easily get tier 5 units after just a few turns of combat, which is just awesome. Futurism: F
- Probably a hot take, but this policy is a total dud in my eyes. Sure the Tourism from City Conquest can help quite a bit, but it isn't that much and isn't going to be the deciding factor on whether or not you take a city, and is almost never going to win you a CV. Iron Fist: C
- Also quite a dud, but even though the yields from Vassals and work rate are quite low, at least they're something. Maybe in some situations this can be really good, but I've almost never had vassalage dissolved through the WC, and never had it in a situation where either my Vassal didn't stay my friend or wasn't easily conquered. Lebensraum: S
- Easily my favorite Tenet in the game. Totally changes Citadel dynamics, synergizes well with Authority, and is just a fun, powerful tenet. Culture on border expand is also insane because it compounds on itself. Military-Industrial Complex: S
- Science from the improvements is crazy, but the cheaper gold purchasing is kind of situational. I honestly don't think this is as strong as people in the Congress proposal thread thought it was, but I'll still put it in S. New World Order: C
- At least in my experience distress is usually not the source of unhappiness I'm dealing with most in the late game, and the extra yields to Constabularies/Police Stations are mediocre and the prod boost is oddly timed, as Police Stations are such a late unlock. Overall it just doesn't synergize well. United Front: F
- Usually an Autocracy player is totally fine supply-wise, the extra resting influence is almost always irrelevant, and the number of extra units you'll get from Militaristic CS from this is quite limited. And this is to say nothing of the strategic headache that often is managing and integrating unit gifts.
SpoilerTier 2 :
Commerce Raiders: C
- Decent tenet, but usually an Autocracy player is in a poor position to make the most of it as they are more likely to have inland cities, fighting with land units, and conquering/bullying CS rather than allying with them. Lightning Warfare: A
- Great tenet, though nothing crazy. Martial Spirit: S
- Absolutely awesome for domination victories and synergizes really well with Lightning Warfare. The reduced War Weariness is even better than it seems on paper IMO. Police State: A
- Depending on how you're conquering, i.e. puppets vs. annexation, could be C tier or could be S, averaging out to an A. Definitely the weakest of the Spy-focused tenets though. Syndicalism: F
- On paper it seems like it could be super strong, but it is very hard to be Popular with other civs while going Autocracy, let alone get Franchises up in major civs. I find that most of my franchises end up in CS (which are unaffected by this policy) as TRs to them are much easier to defend and I'm at war with my neighbors so often I can rarely send TRs to them to set up Franchises. I think in the ideal scenario this could totally be A tier, but I don't think I've ever gotten more than just a few extra franchises from it in my games. Third Alternative: S
- Easily one of the best Tenets in the game for Domination, as it essentially frees you from strategic resource restrictions. The unit maintenance reduction is also quite strong, though nowhere near as good as Peace, Land, Bread's building maintenance reduction. Total War: A
- Very solid tenet with a lot of useful bonuses. One of the few Autocracy tenets to actually synergize well with other ones.
SpoilerTier 3 :
Air Supremacy: C
- Zeros are fine, but they don't synergize that well with Autocracy's combat style, and if you have Third Alternative you won't be worrying about using Oil too much. Regardless, I personally think that Zeros are the most underwhelming of the Ideology units. Given Autocracy's focus on war, I think it would be interesting if it unlocked more than just one unit. And if Zeros were a T1 or T2 unlock, they would be a lot more attractive. Cult of Personality: A
- While this has a really strong Tourism modifier, it is again tourism that doesn't really help in the way a Domination player needs, as it only applies to civs you're not at war with. I've never gone for a peaceful CV as autocracy so maybe I am totally underestimating this one though. Tyranny: A
- Definitely the only useful T3 tenet in Autocracy, though compared to Order's and Freedom's its still pretty mediocre. It synergizes well with the Autocracy playstyle and other tenets/policies, letting you make more use Authority and Total War--which you almost certainly picked up earlier--, as well as your army during the admittedly limited moments of peace in your game.
Overall, from a design point of view, I think Order has to be my favorite of the ideologies. It is clearly designed around a specific playstyle, has thematic policies that use a few shared mechanics (e.g. 5 free buildings) that synergize really well, yet is actually quite flexible and can be used to go in a number of different directions.
Freedom's tenets are also fantastic thematically and synergistically, though it feels like a less flexible option. Order is awesome because it mostly just gives flat yields (especially production) which you can use for anything, while Freedom mostly just gives you a lot of gold and more GPs. In other words, it feels like Order allows you to get/produce more of something, while Freedom just kind of gives it to you, though I'm definitely overstating the difference a bit for the sake of argument.
Autocracy is easily my least favorite of the ideologies, as its tenets are highly disjointed and inconsistent in power. When I do go autocracy, I almost always just b-line to Tyranny and then start one of the earlier policy branches as their bonuses are almost always better and more helpful in securing any of the victory conditions, even domination. That being said, the wildly OP policies in Autocracy like Lebensraum are super fun to use. I think Autocracy would benefit from 1 or 2 more ideology UUs (bring back the Panzer!), a tenet that increases GG/GA birthrate, changes to/overhaul of the tourism-focused tenets, a tenet or two that focuses on production and/or growth, and just general tweaks to tenets to make everything more synergistic.
Edit: totally misunderstood Cult of Personality. Changed from F to A.
Creative Expression is S if you are going CV, C if your not.
Civil Society: In most tradition plays I do I already can work basically every specialist I need in the capital. Its a nice boost, but not an S. A at most, often a C in my games, I just don't need more growth/food with my tall plays at this point.
Capitalism: Again normally for tall plays I don't have any happiness problems. Its nice for the gold, but not an S.
Freedom Tier 3: Media Culture is an S for CV, Treaty Organization an S for DV (its the extra votes more than the influence to me, but its all good). Space Procurements is an A (its nice to have but not as essential for SV imo).
Order
Communism: is a C for me. I normally have plenty of hammers with Order at this point, and the hammers are wonders are rarely a problem.
Hero of the People: is S to me, I mean what is really better? The free GP works for any strategy you have, not to mention the extra GPP on top.
People's Army: C or even F, I can just never find time for this policy, there's just always better stuff.
Cultural Revolution: If you are going for a CV strat, its a C maybe an A. Its one of the strongest and most consistent tourism bonuses in the game if you focus on your happiness.
Five Year Plan: A or C. I already have so much free stuff as order, a lot of the time I just don't need more hammers, I need more of everything else.
GLF: A or even S...if you want science (and who doesn't), nothing beats this. Its no where near the glory of when it was T3, but you still are always going to want to use it for the science.
Academy of Sciences (F----): I want to note this one as.... this should no longer exist. Between DotP and GLF, I have all the science I could want at tier 2. This is a 3rd tier 2 pick at absolute best...and at that point I already have my research labs long selected. This tenent has no purpose anymore, and should be repurposed into an entirely new concept.
Resettlement: Its a C for me....there is nothing those 2 extra pops do that other order policies don't do better imo.
Socialist Realism: TBD. I have given it a really solid run through now twice, and I can very comfortably say it is not OP. But is it "good", remains to be seen.
Autocracy
Futurism: Like most CV tenents, its either really solid or complete garbage, but its a fine tenent for CV play.
New World Order: F, when would you take this over anything else in the tree?
Martial Spirit and Lightning Warfare are flipped for me. MS only gives +10% more CS then LW, and LW's ability to ignore ZOC is WAY more useful to me, it changes how you war.
Police State: C for me
Syncalism: Again if your going a CV focused autocracy strat, it can be quite potent with the right corps. that said, I do think it often takes too long to really show its full power, so a C for me.
Third Alternative: I agree with the S, I think this is the sneakiest tenent in the game, as its easy to forget just how many bonuses you are about to get from all of those strategic monopolies you inevitably get.
Total War: C at best, there are just way better things to take.
Cult of Personality: This is an A/S for CV play. The +50% common war bonus is nice, but that's not the prize. Its getting to 100 warscore wtih an enemy and never letting them go, gaining a nigh permanent +50% tourism bonus with everyone. That's just amazingly good.
Air Superiority: SSS, strongest war policy in the game other than lebensaum. Let me count the ways:
You take a new city and then immediately air drop an entire army around it, boom, you have secured the city and now have a major foothold.
You also immediately drop 6 planes in that city to project force.
Zeroes are broken, and are the only plane you need to make. You can have swarms of thes guys, they do good damage and they never die with air repair. Who cares about interception?....just keep attacking through it, you have airports in all of your city, your enemy almost certainly does not....just attack until they are dead.
I used to underestimate this policy too, but the speed at which it accelerates your conquest is actually obscene once you learn to use it well.
Thinking about the S's in more detail. To me an S would imply a tenent that defines the ideology. Aka no matter what play I do, I would feel liek an idiot don't getting this tenent. So to cut down on my shortlist on Ss, where's what I think.
The True S Tiers
Freedom: Treat Organization is the only one that I think no matter my start I will always take, New Deal for the typical Tall freedom strat.
It combos extremely well with a vassal oriented gameplay
Trade routes to vassals are secure if you vassalized neighbors
The culture tithe they pay, plus the +33% extra tourism from being vassal, means it is very easy to be popular with them
You can still trade with vassals if you are denounced
Another quick note for Iron fist :
It completely negate any capability for vassals to rebel, which mean you can safely extend war to other strong opponent without fear of losing vassals in the process
Concerning the above, it already happened to me to have vassals ask for independence after declaring war on a strong opponent, so real thing happening
The bonus to workers is great, increase speed at which you get forts, railroads, strategics, repairs in conquered cities
It's not the good place, but I'd like to add that I'd swapped the Order/Autocracy National Wonders for WC. Votes from vassals is more fit to autocracy playstyle, which have one solid vassal-oriented tenet, whilst Order is more inclined toward annexing territories and improve them (production, free courthouse, better internal TR to boost newly conquered cities), so taking capitals seems more fitting for them.
I actually always take Worker's Faculties first. I usually unlock ideology in early Industrial, so Factories are nowhere close and the 5 free ones both compensate for the lack of coal and kickstart the production stack.
People's Army is second and Academy of Sciences is usually next. That's a lot of free buildings that you don't have the tech for a long time!
Nationalization needs a super wide empire to benefit from it, like 20+ cities. Otherwise you're better off not taking it.
Futurism is also a +41% increase in tourism from historic events of GP birth, era advance, WW construction and war victory.
You focus on establishing franchises in your vassals' cities if you have Syndicalism. You're always Popular+ with them unless you're really bad.
In terms of total absolute bonus perhaps, but the reason nationalism is good is more the SPEED of franchise creation. You go from needing 20 all the way to 50 turns of more to secure all of your franchises (as you normally need several rounds of TR completions to get them all), versus have your entire franchise pool activated immediately. Yields Now > Yields later of course, so it can be quite a strong bonus.
I think you are sleeping on Arsenal of Democracy. It's a bit situational, but with the right setup (e.g. lots of diplomatic marriages with Austria or the Civilized Jewelers corporation on any civ), I'd say it's possibly the strongest policy on the Freedom tree. With one of those setups, you can get to the point where you're producing one or more great people every turn, and then it gives you 10 or more influence with every city state every turn. Now you don't need to worry about other civs passing city state sanctions or decolonization; you can ally every city state easily without trade routes and if decolonization passes you can get every ally back in a couple of turns.
I agree that Autocracy does feel rather disjointed. I don't have the game in front of me so I can't remember every tenent:
Air superiority: absolutely broken, as what stalker said. I don't even care about zeros. Having immediate air drops around conquered cities is insane.
Having 6 stacks of planes when your enemies only have 2 is also cartoonish.
Lebensraum: feels broken so I never take it, chaining citadels together is hilarious and so unfair.
Third alternative: also feels broken so I stopped taking it. Making choices about which unit to build because you're constrained by resources is a fun decision and this gets rid of it.
Whatever policy gives you more supply: I never take it, late game armies are already far too large.
The corporation setup for Autocracy is literally all about getting franchises in your vassals. I do find it a little slow because my tourism sucks until I have eaten enough civs that I've stolen a lot of great works and by the time my tourism really picks up the game is essentially over. Pretty unreal once it gets cooking though, pair it with the corporation that gives great people % and you get comical multipliers.
Of course this is only one game, but I just finished a Dutch Order playthrough and I definitely want to adjust my ratings for a few tenets. The big one is Socialist Realism. While I do think that Freedom is the better ideology for a culture victory, Order is just so versatile, and Socialist Realism is the cherry on top. I think my initial skepticism of the tenet and why I hadn't seriously tried it until now was due to the fact that it is only a 15% conversion, compared to the 25% of the other processes. However, Tourism is subject to so many modifiers, even more than Food it seems, so that 15% ends up being like 50+% if you're actually going for a CV. But what I like about the process the most is that it is something that can be turned on or off, and thus gives you massive flexibility. It's also very thematic I think. While Freedom (i.e. America) gets their CV through creative strategies and precise calculations, Order (i.e. the USSR) just does it through brute force and heavy industry.
Unlike for Freedom, where the CV, DV, and SV paths are super clear cut, i.e. you really have to commit to one but once you do its really strong, in this most recent game I was essentially going for SV and CV at the same time and only had to commit to one in the last dozen or so turns. Really the only decision I had to make was what WC proposals I pushed through with vote-buying (ISS vs. International Games) and whether I wanted to work Research or Propaganda in my cities. In fact, while I was building spaceship parts in my core cities I was working propaganda in my satellite cities and was able to become influential with all civs the same turn that I finished the final spaceship part. Of course I was very far ahead at this point due to some pretty hard-nosed settlement and conquest earlier in the game that boxed in one strong player and neutralized another, but still it was very cool to see.
I still think Freedom offers stronger ways to win (luckily I was able to nuke and vassalize the snowballing Freedom player in this game), but they're easier to spot and counter, while Order can switch courses really quickly but still be quite strong.
I actually always take Worker's Faculties first. I usually unlock ideology in early Industrial, so Factories are nowhere close and the 5 free ones both compensate for the lack of coal and kickstart the production stack.
Worker's faculities is situationally amazing. As you said, sometimes I need factories now and I have no coal, in which case this is gold. in other starts I my science is a bit quicker and my culture slower, so I already have factories and I have the coal I need, in which case its a C. Nothing wrong with it, its a very solid tenent that does exactly what it needs to do, and comes up enough in games to make it worth it.
Agree with OP about Civil Society + Capitalism for Freedom. For second one at Tier 2, choose Finest Hour to speed unit production and increase city-state influence, especially if you're fighting for a Diplo victory.
Space Procurement is about 2,500 gold at King level which is doable if your tech slowed and it's a tight squeeze to launch the spaceship before turn 500.
Not often anymore. Probably 10% of games when I first moved up to that level. I don't consider Time to be a real victory, but it seems some people in this forum do. No bonus. I play for points, not how fast I can win at top level with tweaked starting conditions. Vanilla only.
Air Superiority is absolutly S tier. Need a foothold on another county? Conquer 1 city/1 city state, and you are pretty much golden to take over the rest of the continent. Its a fun tenant in my opinion.
Absolutly agree with military industrial complex, but somewhat situational. Civs that have spamable UI gets so much addtional science with this tenant, it almost feels like cheating.
In reality, the right thing to do is to significantly increase the price of diplomatic units and increase the cooldown on the purchase of these units. Or impose a restriction 'CS has already accepted your ambassador', which will not allow 5-7 turns (10) to use the ambassador again, blocking the diplomatic mission button. Which will require some long-term planning and will increase the value of quests completed and units donated. At the same time, this will reduce situations where two AI compete for one CS and have an influence of 800+, which is almost impossible to overpower if you are on another continent, and even temporarily become an ally to obtain at least a scarce luxury resource for 10-15 turns.
I'm playing 3.0.4, so the AI is different, but there's some crazy stuff going on. I started spamming diplomatic units, since it is impossible to compete for city-states only by gifting units and completing quests. The AI responded by increasing its spam. It's not uncommon for 5 CSs to change ally every turn.
The AI Congress has already decided 4 times to decolonize my empire. In one CS the influence of Assyria as a current ally is 1800, but this is after my decolonization. But even after decolonization, 10 turns before the new Congress are quite enough to regain almost all allies through spamming ambassadors. It seems to me that this should not be the case.
The production time for one unit is 1-2 turns. Price 460-470 in the information era. There is a lot of gold in version 3.0.4 and it affects it. One Great Merchant gives at least 10k, which allows you to buy 20+ units.
For the first few rounds of diplo buying I would agree, but eventually that money does run out...and then the MIS just keeps on going.
But beyond all of this MIS is an essential tech for autocracy because its one of the few science policies it has. So it has a bit of needed everything, makes upgrading cheaper, and keeps the science flowing.
What? probably the best of all tenets. The free airport in every city is a cheat code. And I like it. Without it, conquest on larger maps would take too long and be too boring.
It's the main reason to pic autocracy at all. Take city, beam in units for blockade, move planes and your foothold is secured. Only nukes can spoil this.
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