C2C Combat Mod Introduction - Step III (The New Face of Combat)

[crazyewok]

I love th sound of these changes and the more realstic combat is the better. I hate games which are simple! Might be best to make a option to turn on and off so those that like simple combat can have it

And I agree with nimek on the fact that siege units should be easy to capture.

 

[Koshling]

I love th sound of these changes and the more realstic combat is the better. I hate games which are simple! Might be best to make a option to turn on and off so those that like simple combat can have it

And I agree with nimek on the fact that siege units should be easy to capture.

Yes, between humans. With an AI involved only if the AI handles it well, or else you just increase the gap between the human and the AI. So I guess I am for it being an option too, so that people who find the AI too easy don't have to amplify that effect until such time as the AI is ready for it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I watching 12padams 21st episode lets play.

I have feelings that defensive strenght of siege units should be reduced by 75%
Unprotected siege units should be easy to kill or capture.

Look at the minute 3 of this lets play and you will understand waht i am saying.
It is very funny that archers cant kill unprotected siege ram.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RLD5WUIw1Y&feature=g-high-u

I agree. We have defensive siege units and those should be quite powerful. But some of them seem a bit out of balance and the siege ram in particular is among those that do.

I thought we had tags for generic attack or defense strength modifiers. Is this true? Or is it necessary to make these via listing all terrains (and causing major clutter in the process?) If we don't have them I really should put those tags in place!


@Koshling: I agree there too... though I will be trying to get as much AI work done on the combat mod as possible before a big xml design push. Nevertheless, these are not simple affairs and I know you're going to be doing a lot of work in the next cycle or two on overall military ai so I'll be interested to see how that goes and how it will be necessary to plug things from the combat mod into that AI design.

 

[Il Principe]

I watching 12padams 21st episode lets play.

I have feelings that defensive strenght of siege units should be reduced by 75%
Unprotected siege units should be easy to kill or capture.

Look at the minute 3 of this lets play and you will understand waht i am saying.
It is very funny that archers cant kill unprotected siege ram.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RLD5WUIw1Y&feature=g-high-u

I agree. We have defensive siege units and those should be quite powerful. But some of them seem a bit out of balance and the siege ram in particular is among those that do.

Although I agree in general, I think it pretty obvious that Archers can´t realy harm a siege ram. Those things were build to slowly aproach a castle and bater down the gates while constantly under atack by defending archers. Melee units are a totaly different matter. Maybe there should be some modifiert to defense depending on the attackers combat class?

On the subject of equipment: http://xkcd.com/1114/

Yeah that one is great. And it always reminds me of Lord of the Rings where the best equipment is always an relic from the second or first age.. meaning at least 2k years old
This is put to extremes in lord LotrO, where every weapon that is realy worthhile gettign is crafted from especially old and worn down parts.
And glows blue when Orcs come
Same goes for Warhammer 40k.. just without the glow.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

Thunderbird do you know when the combat mod is going to be fully implemented

 

[ls612]

Thunderbird do you know when the combat mod is going to be fully implemented

Probably not for a while as the rest of us sort of want to focus on Multi-Maps and GeoRealism support for the next few versions, and the new Traits will probably also take some of Thunderbrd's time.

But we do intend to make Multi-Maps a priority as soon as Koshling gets back on a regular basis (hopefully next cycle).

 

[Thunderbrd]

I agree with ls612 on most of what he just said. But I do try to work in some advancement on the combat mod front with each release. Even if you don't see it in play, we're getting closer as unfinished coding projects continue to be addressed as we go. If I really focused in on it I could probably get all the coding done in the next cycle and have some of the XML done by the end of the next enough to reveal parts of it to play. But as ls612 points out, as a member of a team here, I have a lot to do to support others along the way! And the traits has become a major focus for me but it's something I don't feel will take too much longer for me to reach a resolution point on for the most part. I just have a modmod to put together and I should be back on track to return to primary focus on the Combat Mod.

The Multi-maps project is something I can and do look forward to taking some role in but I'm still waiting for some key information to be able to move forward with anything I can contribute there. But if we get some steps in front of us tackled, I can start work on my contributions there immediately.

 

[ls612]

As Thunderbrd and myself have also discussed we also need to more clearly define the mechanism for turning on and of the Combat Mod. I'm still not certain that the conditional XML loading will work.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Although it'd be a much bigger picture, ls612, if some combat mod options are done on a tag by tag basis, part of the method I'd be looking to employ (if AIAndy has his hands too full anyhow) works pretty well for the Pure Traits option, does it not?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

I hope this is the right C2C Combat Mod Introduction thread to post this.

I recall discussion about different types of hidden units and ways to detect them. For instance Theif units now use all the same "stealth" but it would be nice if there were different types. Such as ...

Radar Stealth
- Units like the Stealth Bomber are invisible from Radar.
- Radar station buildings (or possibly radar units) can see only units that can see units that do not have radar stealth. Thus they could have a very long "sight" range, but a limited band to see in.

Sonar Stealth
- Same as Radar but for underwater naval units.

Invisibility
- Cannot see in the visual spectrum. Can still be seen in Infrared and Radar.

Infrared Stealth
- Cannot see in Infrared.

Also we may want to consider smell, vibration and sound detection (besides sonar). And of course camouflage for earlier eras.

I don't have a link but I think there might actually be a mod out there that has different types of "stealth".

EDIT: Found a related thread.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah... its definitely something prime and I would like to achieve here but its clearly a project beyond anything he and I are working on currently. I figure we'll probably collaborate on this one when we start getting a bit more freed up to do so.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

Spoiler :

@Thunderbrd

I hope this is the right C2C Combat Mod Introduction thread to post this.

I recall discussion about different types of hidden units and ways to detect them. For instance Theif units now use all the same "stealth" but it would be nice if there were different types. Such as ...

Radar Stealth
- Units like the Stealth Bomber are invisible from Radar.
- Radar station buildings (or possibly radar units) can see only units that can see units that do not have radar stealth. Thus they could have a very long "sight" range, but a limited band to see in.

Sonar Stealth
- Same as Radar but for underwater naval units.

Invisibility
- Cannot see in the visual spectrum. Can still be seen in Infrared and Radar.

Infrared Stealth
- Cannot see in Infrared.

Also we may want to consider smell, vibration and sound detection (besides sonar). And of course camouflage for earlier eras.

I don't have a link but I think there might actually be a mod out there that has different types of "stealth".

EDIT: Found a related thread.

This is something I am greatly interested in making work as well. I will keeping looking here and update if I can learn how to code that. I started a thread about it a while back: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=355090

 

[Hydromancerx]

Nice. Sounds like you had more or less the same idea. I hope we can make it possible too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

When I get to the project, which is probably months away at best, I'll be taking it one step further and establishing a not so black and white system where the ability to avoid detection and the ability to detect is set on measurement scales and potentially modifiable by terrain, distance, skill factors, fortification etc...

I'll also be working on some special missions available for units to make better use of stealth... like an ambush mission that attacks enemies on the same tile that don't know your unit is there.

Additionally, I'm HOPING I can vastly restructure the 'can attack or move through' system so that its not based on an all or nothing value on the plot - making it so that one of your units may be able to see an opponent unit, but that won't make it so its automatic that other units can see them (maybe assisted in seeing them, but not automatic.)

This is also when I will seek to fix our tunnel issues and create a few other 'game states' for units like buried, phased out, and possibly some altitude considerations for units like helicopters.

Should be cool stuff huh?

 

[ls612]

This is also when I will seek to fix our tunnel issues and create a few other 'game states' for units like buried, phased out, and possibly some altitude considerations for units like helicopters.

Should be cool stuff huh?

Not without adequate feedback and discussion first. I really don't mind your new stuff so long as we all get input.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

tunnels? you working on underground units as well?

 

[Thunderbrd]

We have underwater tunnels and some troubles with boats being able to attack land units in the tunnels and the land units being able to attack the boat units on the same spaces as well... its a very frustrating issue to try and fix and requires an overhaul that could accomplish a lot of other things in the process as denoted above.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

sounds really cool Thunder

 

[ls612]

We have underwater tunnels and some troubles with boats being able to attack land units in the tunnels and the land units being able to attack the boat units on the same spaces as well... its a very frustrating issue to try and fix and requires an overhaul that could accomplish a lot of other things in the process as denoted above.

I'd leave underwater cities at a lower priority for now. The amount of work to fix them would be large, and it would involve some of the same mechanisms Multi-Maps is going to change, so that may not go too well.

 

[GT Ranma]

... could this be a modmod? Selectable when you create a map? Like, Advanced Economics? Just Advanced Combat? Or would this completely replace the combat system?

(I for one hate the current combat system for Civ4, but I know some people like it, so just wondering.)