1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

C2C Combat Mod Option: Hide and Seek

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Thunderbrd, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    C2C Combat Mod Option
    Hide and Seek



    @All (Players/Modders):

    Brilliance or Madness? You'll have to decide for yourself.

    Hide and Seek attempts to capture a deeper sense of strategic realism when it comes to visibility rules in Civ IV.

    The primary changes it introduces is to give units not only the potential of possessing multiple invisibility types and multiple visibility types, it also introduces visibility and invisibility intensity levels so that the strength of the visibility or invisibility can be varied. Therefore, with Hide and Seek, units can strive to improve their abilities to hide and spot those hiding.

    So how is it determined if a unit is seen or not? First, let me explain a basic ground rule of Civ IV that I have NOT changed for this option: Once a unit is seen by an opponent civilization, ALL of the units of that opponent civilization can see and potentially attack that unit. I say 'potentially' because C2C has also introduced unit states that may make a unit incapable of being attacked by units in other states whereas the original game rules were pretty straightforward that 'if you can see it you can attack it'. But for the sake of visibility alone, the old rule that once a unit is visible to your units, all of your units consider it equally visible, even if those other units had nothing to do with spotting the unit, is still in effect.

    So let's say a Trained Dog spots an Ambusher. The Axemen unit 3 squares away but adjacent to the Ambusher can still attack the Ambusher even though it has no personal ability to reveal the Ambusher. In short, revealed is revealed.

    However, the rules that govern revealing units within visible plots have changed under this option (but remain the same on the core game.)

    • All units with visibility intensities in specific types of invisibles add their types of visibilities to plots within their visible range.

    • The intensity of the visibility decreases by 1 per space out from the viewing unit.

    • If a visibility intensity has a range extension value, then the incremental decreases as described in the last point begin decreasing after a number of spaces equal to the range extension.

    • Therefore, visibility types are strongest closest to the viewing unit.

    • If a visibility intensity on a plot is stronger than the invisible unit's invisibility intensity then the unit is revealed unless the unit has any other invisibility types that are not also countered.

      Example: if a unit has an intensity of 2 for its Camouflage Invisibility and 1 for its Disguise Invisibility type and the units of the opponent have generated an intensity of 3 to reveal Camouflage on the plot that the unit moves into but has no Disguise Visibility Intensity on that plot, the unit is still invisible because the Disguise Invisibility is still strong enough to hide the unit.

    • Visibility on Invisible types cannot extend past the ultimate range of visibility for the viewing unit. If the unit can't see as far as the tapering Invisible Type Visibility Intensity it cuts off any further capacity to reveal that Invisibility.

    • Many fundamental unitcombat modifiers exist for both visibilities and invisibilities.

    • It is possible to have modifiers for invisibility intensities based on the Terrain, Feature, and even Improvement existing on a plot. Units on Foot, for example, are modified (given a little camouflage invisibility) by many feature types such as forests.

    • A unit may develop visibility and invisibility strengths through promotions and many units may begin with additional values on top of its UnitCombat bases.

    • Some BuildUps exist to aide some units in gradually enhancing their visibilities and some for units to gradually improve their INvisibilities (while remaining stationary and using that particular BuildUp that is.)

    • There is an additional Size Invisibility type for games with Size Matters. In general, the smaller the group and the smaller the size of the entities in that group, the harder the unit is to see based on size alone. Conversely, the higher the quality of the unit, the more visibility the unit has against size invisibility. Both size visibility and invisibility can be further enhanced by promos.


    I realize that the first points are difficult to follow in dry explanatory text. So here are some examples:



    Let's say the unit in the center of this array of plots has Visibility on Camouflage at an intensity of 1. While it may be able to see 3 spaces out, it won't help to reveal any units with Camouflage Invisibility of 2 intensity or greater and it will only reveal units with Camouflage Invisibility of 1 in a one space radius around it.




    The same unit takes a promotion that gives it another +1 to Visibility on Camouflage units. It now reveals units with Camouflage Invisibility of 2 intensity or less in adjacent plots and reveals units with Camouflage Invisibility of 1 up to 2 spaces away. Even though it may be able to see 3 spaces out, it still can't see Camouflaged units of any intensity in the third ring out.

    If it gets another +1 Visibility towards Camouflage units, the third rung will have Camouflage 1 Visibility coverage, the 2nd rung Camouflage 2 Visibility coverage and the adjacent plots would have Camouflage 3 Visibility coverage.

    If it has, say, 5 Intensity visibility towards Camouflage units but has an ultimate vision range of 3, it still only sees 5 intensity and less in the first rung, 4 and less in the second, 3 and less in the third and does not reveal any Camouflaged units beyond that because it's hit its ultimate range of vision.



    Let's say the unit didn't get +1 Intensity Visibility on Camouflage though and instead got +1 Range Visibility on Camouflage. Now, up to 2 spaces out the unit can see units with Camouflage intensity of 1 or less. The third rung he still can't see any Camouflaged units at all.

    If the unit then takes a +1 to his Visibility towards Camouflage units, these first two rings will have Camouflage 2 or less revealed and the third will reveal Camouflage 1 units.


    And to continue the above examples, if a criminal unit with Camouflage 1 and Disguise 1 wanders into the range where its Camouflage values are revealed, the player of the viewing unit still won't be able to see the criminal unless it ALSO has a unit that is revealing Disguise invisibility on that plot. Two or more different viewing units can create the visibility values on a plot that ultimately reveals a unit with multiple invisibility types - and this is often necessary.

    Example: Law Enforcement units are good at detecting units with Disguise but are not very good at seeing units with Camouflage. Canine units are the opposite, good at detecting Camouflaged units but terrible at detecting units with Disguise. So if a plot has both a Law Enforcement unit and Canine unit, a criminal would need to be very skilled at one or both types of Invisibility to evade detection nearby them.


    The effect this option has on a game is to give units an entirely new development path giving units new ways to specialize and become useful in fulfilling a specialized role. It adds another strategy layer to consider, as all Combat Mod options do. It makes the wild a lot more... wild - spotting animals becomes another game within the game. In play, you'll likely be commonly surprised by units you did not realize were there and if you're playing to avoid detection, there's certainly a challenge in that as well.

    This was designed to answer to many conversations we've had on these forums over the years we've been working on this mod and it also answers to numerous balance issues with criminal units and their capacities to approach and blend into cities.


    AI for this mod is still pending but there's natural rudimentary AI built in already at this stage... enough that it shouldn't cripple the AI. Once the full AI work is completed for this, however, the option should really put the balance of power a notch in the AI's favor until the human player truly masters the intricacies of the strategic layer this introduces.

    There are many differing ways this option addresses various game elements. The stage of the game can dramatically adjust the visibility and invisibility strategies by gradually introducing new invisibility types and giving different units different strengths and weaknesses where it comes to these visibility and invisibility type intensities. Criminals, for example, start off with disguise and camouflage but somewhere along the way they stop using camouflage so much and start using political invisibility - red tape that keeps the law from being able to take action against them thus making them effectively invisible.

    In truth, the full picture of this option has yet to be fully developed but now that it's established, it can be a part of the full tapestry of the mod to be adjusted as further modding takes place. In particular, there are more plans than implementations for the futuristic stuff. Additionally, a much larger picture of this option will emerge as the Equipment project gets fully underway. Example: Differing types of terrain specific camouflage for your soldiers could be assigned depending on where your soldiers are likely to be put to use. Ultimately, this option, while fairly extensive as a package of complex visibility and invisibility factors, is at this point still in its infancy.

    Feedback from players is, of course, very welcome here. Any questions, comments, concerns?



    For Modders:
    The following tags have been added that are specific for this option. The original SeeInvisibility and Invisibility tags are still in place but only apply to the core game without the option in play.

    VisibilityIntensityChangeTypes
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    <VisibilityIntensityChangeTypes>
        <VisibilityIntensityChangeType>
            <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>
            <iIntensity></iIntensity>
        </VisibilityIntensityChangeType>
    </VisibilityIntensityChangeTypes>
    

    Applies to: UnitCombatInfos and PromotionInfos

    Adds or Removes Visibility Type Intensity to a unit.


    VisibilityIntensityRangeChangeTypes
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    <VisibilityIntensityRangeChangeTypes>
        <VisibilityIntensityRangeChangeType>
            <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>
            <iIntensity></iIntensity>
        </VisibilityIntensityRangeChangeType>
    </VisibilityIntensityRangeChangeTypes>
    

    Applies to: UnitCombatInfos and PromotionInfos

    Adds or Removes Visibility Type Range Adjustment to a unit.


    InvisibilityIntensityChangeTypes
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    <InvisibilityIntensityChangeTypes>
        <InvisibilityIntensityChangeType>
            <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>
            <iIntensity></iIntensity>
        </InvisibilityIntensityChangeType>
    </InvisibilityIntensityChangeTypes>
    

    Applies to: UnitCombatInfos and PromotionInfos

    Adds or Removes Invisibility Type Intensity to a unit.


    VisibilityIntensityTypes
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    <VisibilityIntensityTypes>
        <VisibilityIntensityType>
            <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>
            <iIntensity></iIntensity>
        </VisibilityIntensityType>
    </VisibilityIntensityTypes>
    

    Applies to: UnitInfos

    Base Visibility Type Intensity for a unit. However, it can be valuable to think of this as being an adjustment to all the unit's unitcombat Visibility Intensity Changes though. Many units you might think should have a value here don't because they get those values purely through their UnitCombats.


    InvisibilityIntensityTypes
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    <InvisibilityIntensityTypes>
        <InvisibilityIntensityType>
            <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>
            <iIntensity></iIntensity>
        </InvisibilityIntensityType>
    </InvisibilityIntensityTypes>
    

    Applies to: UnitInfos

    Base Invisibility Type Intensity for a unit. However, it can be valuable to think of this as being an adjustment to all the unit's unitcombat Invisibility Intensity Changes though. Many units you might think should have a value here don't because they get those values purely through their UnitCombats.


    InvisibleTerrainChanges
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    <InvisibleTerrainChanges>
        <InvisibleTerrainChange>
            <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>
            <TerrainType></TerrainType>
            <iIntensity></iIntensity>
        </InvisibleTerrainChange>
    </InvisibleTerrainChanges>
    

    Applies to: UnitInfos, UnitCombatInfos, PromotionInfos

    Modifies the unit's invisibility intensity of the defined invisibility type whenever the unit is on a tile with the denoted terrain. With some of the defined base unitcombats, this option establishes many units as having SOME small degree of potential invisibility depending on the type of tile they stand on.


    InvisibleFeatureChanges
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    <InvisibleFeatureChanges>
        <InvisibleFeatureChange>
            <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>
            <FeatureType></FeatureType>
            <iIntensity></iIntensity>
        </InvisibleFeatureChange>
    </InvisibleFeatureChanges>
    

    Applies to: UnitInfos, UnitCombatInfos, PromotionInfos

    Modifies the unit's invisibility intensity of the defined invisibility type whenever the unit is on a tile with the denoted feature. With some of the defined base unitcombats, this option establishes many units as having SOME small degree of potential invisibility depending on the type of tile they stand on. Units with Mobility (Foot) are difficult to see if in a forest or jungle, for example.


    InvisibleImprovementChanges
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    <InvisibleImprovementChanges>
        <InvisibleImprovementChange>
            <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>
            <ImprovementType></ImprovementType>
            <iIntensity></iIntensity>
        </InvisibleImprovementChange>
    </InvisibleImprovementChanges>
    

    Applies to: UnitInfos, UnitCombatInfos, PromotionInfos

    Modifies the unit's invisibility intensity of the defined invisibility type whenever the unit is on a tile with the denoted improvement. With some of the defined base unitcombats, this option establishes many units as having SOME small degree of potential invisibility depending on the type of tile they stand on.

    IMPROVEMENT_CITY was added to the improvement list but is not something added to a tile. Instead, this tag checks if there is a city or fort on the tile and applies any programmed modifier through this tag with the use of IMPROVEMENT_CITY. Thus it is added as a proxy for THIS tag only though may be useful to start including for other tags that specify an improvement as well. Let me know if you'd like this kind of functionality on a given tag that utilizes an improvement type.



    Establishing the xml for this option was pretty complex and if you understand how it all comes together I'm sure you'll see many potential ways to improve the structure. Just make sure you get a clear picture of all of a unit's visibility or invisibility sources and have determined the ultimate totals before looking to make further adjustments. A lot of thought went into this so while I'm very welcoming to efforts to improve the structure of this option, I'd just ask for such efforts to be well communicated! ;)


    @Players:
    You'll have many new Promotions to look forward to working with. They have an artistic scheme that should easily express their purpose. Black background with silver symbol indicates invisibility type manipulation. (Black with gold is Hidden Nationality manipulation and can exist in the game without this option.) White background with Dark Grey to Black symbols represents a promotion used to manipulate a visibility on a unit.

    Here's a few of them:
    Build Up (Concealment)


    Covert Operations


    Build Up (Checkpoints)


    Keen Ears


    Proud Pirate


    Crow's Nest



    So... feedback on this should be interesting! ;)



    Note: some terms have been changed recently, Spot and Veil replace Visibility and Invisibility. I'll further edit the text to reflect that soon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
    canexpthat likes this.
  2. Taxman66

    Taxman66 King

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    872
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Columbia, Maryland USA
    Shouldn't some buildings add advantages to spotters (e.g. gate house and various other anti-spy buildings vs. disguise, towers vs. camo/normal invisible, radar stations, sonar stations and so on?) Perhaps you could even have plot improvements for sonar bouys (ocean) and radar station.
     
  3. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012
    Messages:
    3,523
    Maybe Tower buildings (including wonders) could work with this, too, by increasing some visibility ranges.

    Looks very cool, I'm excited! :goodjob:
     
  4. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas

    True. Buildings should eventually be given some boosting effects. As I haven't been able to yet incorporate a massive review of buildings, my ability to include them into the picture and keep things in a semblance of measured balance is currently limited. If someone wanted to fully evaluate the structure of the option mod as it is and work out how buildings would best interact with this system, I'm very open to adding tags and having that discussion.

    Range modifiers shouldn't be a problem in most cases but if you start adding actual intensities of visibilities and/or invisibilities to units via buildings it could easily get pretty far out of whack.

    What might be really interesting too is if some buildings enabled certain buildups. That could work well... for example, a guardpost might enable a degree of Checkpoints buildup for LE units rather than allowing LE units to perform this buildup anywhere.

    As stated... there's clearly room for a lot more development.

    One thing I'd like to do regarding radar and sonar, since it was mentioned, was eventually add in the ability for some visibility types to be able to exceed the range of vision itself. Sonar and radar would be examples of this and I've been debating if hunters should have a tracking ability that lets them pinpoint the location of animals outside their visibility reach.

    But this would be another major adjustment effort that would fly against the grain of the standard rules and there's a little more research that would need to be done to achieve this. Figured I might work on that more when we start hitting the naval review implementation.
     
  5. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    16,380
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western IL. cornfields
    Does this newest addition break old save games compatibility? Seems SO thinks so.

    JosEPh
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    No (should not at least - if there is a problem there I'll be glad to take a look). But you really should not try to turn the option on or off in the middle of a game. It is to be played with or without all the way through.

    This also won't change anything about the core game at all. Vis/Invis intensities are not an issue for a game without the option.

    Checked the bug thread... looks like there may've been an issue which I'm resolving as we speak.

    EDIT: new dll should resolve any possible bug along these lines. We're gtg.
     
  7. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    7,419
    Location:
    Norway
    Cool concept TB. I'm guessing camo/visibility intensity is meaningless for units that don't have: <Invisible>X</Invisible> or <SeeInvisible>X</SeeInvisible>.
    Can the mentioned "X" be anything else than INVISIBLE_CAMOUFLAGE?

    Brainstorming.
    Terrain
    Barren/Salt-Flats: -2 camo. intensity
    Scrub/Plains/Grass: -1 camo. intensity
    Lush/Marsh: +1 camo. intensity
    Hills/Peaks: +1 vis. range +1 camo. intensity

    Features
    (Ancient )Forest/Jungle/Bamboo/Mangrove: -2 vis. range & +2 camo. intensity
    Tall Grass/Outcrops: +1 camo Intensity

    Improvements
    Tower improvements: +1 vis. range
    Town Improvements: -1 vis. range & +1 camo. intensity
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    <Invisible> and <SeeInvisible> are meaningless when playing this mod. For example, you'll find Hunters become a stealth unit of a sort as well here. What matters here is the tags I expressed to Modders in the first post.

    Yes, there are quite a few other types of Invisibility than Camouflage.
    Spoiler :
    Code:
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_STEALTH</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_STEALTH_NAVY</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_CAMOUFLAGE</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_CAMOUFLAGE</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_INVISIBLE</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_INVISIBLE</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_CLOAKED</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_CLOAKED</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_VOID</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_VOID</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_NANO</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_NANO</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_PHASED</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_PHASED</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_IMMATERIAL</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_IMMATERIAL</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_DISGUISED</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_DISGUISED</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_POLITICAL</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_POLITICAL</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_SUBMERGED</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_SUBMERGED</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_SIZE</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_SIZE</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>
    		<InvisibleInfo>
    			<Type>INVISIBLE_NAVAL_DISGUISE</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_NAVAL_DISGUISE</Description>
    		</InvisibleInfo>


    You'll be interested to note that I'm going to be handling submerged states this way as well, thus establishing a deeper level of invisibility the more a unit is submerged.

    These modifiers were something I originally though of and then thought better of. Instead, I put the modifiers not on the terrains/features themselves but on the UnitCombats for those terrains. Not all of these modifiers exist and not all for all units. The negative camo mods you noted weren't added but may be good to include. Most of the camo enhancing mods on units by terrains were only given to units that walk on foot (MOTILITY_FOOT).

    +1 vis range on what? Only camo? I can see tower improvements as adding some range to that - haven't added it in yet though. The town modifiers you noted could be good - though I did generate some interaction with Criminals and towns regarding disguise.


    By all means, take a deep look into the established modifiers and I'm more than happy to work with further tweaks. In fact, I'm hoping YOU in particular will indeed get to know the intricacies of this option and be able to see how to improve it precisely.
     
  9. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    7,419
    Location:
    Norway
    I see, then the only thing I'm a bit unclear on is what goes into: " <InvisibleType></InvisibleType>".

    First I thought it might be INVISIBLE_X; but now I'm wondering if it's supposed to take a terrain/feature/improvement tag-key like "TERRAIN_X" instead...?
     
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The invisible type goes in those sub-tags. Ex: INVISIBLE_CAMOUFLAGE.

    It's the generic <Invisible> tag that has no impact on this option. That only affects the unit for the core game.
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    It occurs to me that I only established invisibility adjustments on plot details and did not see cause to establish VISibility adjustments on plots (where the viewing unit is standing). You guys bring up some good reasons to do so of course.

    I'll work on that and promotion tags that provides a local building OR improvement prerequisite. Such prereqs would only be appropriate for BuildUps really (MAYBE elsewhere) but I can certainly see the value in adding them and utilizing them here to control access to particular visibility build up promos.
     
  12. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    7,419
    Location:
    Norway
    Thoughts on Invisible_Size values:
    Spoiler :

    Note that most units should have their combat quality reevaluated.
    -Diminutive-Solo-Pathetic (Tarantula/Dartfrog) would be able to go unnoticed by most units but wouldn't really notice anything smaller than gargantuan (Siege Tower/Blue Whale) or more than a Company of soldiers even when sharing the same tile/region.
    -Hunters (Exceptional) would be able to see the tarantula with hunting sight II which should only be available to hunters. They would see Tiny-Solo animals (fennec fox, birds) with hunting sight I

    -A Solo-Medium (wanderer or any split unit) would be able to pass unnoticed past anything less than Exceptional quality but a mediocre unit could learn to notice them.
    -A Party-Medium (Recon/Hunters) would be able to pass unnoticed past anything less than Standard quality but an inferior unit could learn to notice them.

    -Fine sized units would be pretty hard for anyone to see without promotions, only the two largest group sized would be noticed by a divine unit.

    -Colossal is out of the picture from the get go, anything (unless incapable) would notice godzilla if it were in their field of view no matter the context or for how long.

    The numbers might seem crazy at first glance, but there is some thought behind them. Fine size is smaller or close to what the naked eye of most animals can see (from macro to the micro size region) hence the big jump in invisibility. I'm wondering if perhaps fine sized units should have a pretty big (+20) increase in visibility bonus so they can see each other.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Interesting. I think I see the 'why' in this but I was hoping you'd explain your thoughts. Also... could we keep the promos to 3 stages?

    Many animals are Solo Tiny. Looks like it would take Epic or quite a developed promoted unit to see those even one space over. (Snakes for example... at Diminutive , Frogs and Spiders would be even harder if not impossible.) Making it too hard would mean the only way to hunt for those types would be to go out where they're found and hope to be attacked. I'm not sure some such animals aren't already a bit too difficult to spot in the current layout.

    Just some Devil's advocate food for thought.

    Still, mathematically and logically I do think your proposal makes a lot of sense.
     
  14. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    7,419
    Location:
    Norway
    I'm too tired at the moment to state my reasoning, I even made a number error for the matrix, so the image I posted was messed up from the start. I will come back to this after a good nights sleep I think...

    Edit: fixed the errors and expanded the table in my previous post.
     
  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Actually, under the spoiler is nothing... at least that's what it's showing me.



    NOTE: I'm currently committing the following tags:

    VisibleTerrainChanges
    VisibleFeatureChanges
    VisibleImprovementChanges
    and
    VisibleTerrainRangeChanges
    VisibleFeatureRangeChanges
    VisibleImprovementRangeChanges

    These work exactly like the InvisibleTerrainChanges, InvisibleFeatureChanges and InvisibleImprovementChanges tags listed above and carry the same syntax but of course apply to the Visibility Intensity and Range capabilities of the unit when on the qualifying tile. They've been equally added to UnitInfos, UnitCombatInfos and PromotionInfos.

    Some of the immediate suggestions required these tags.

    @Toffer: I'd be quite happy to turn all further xml adjustments to you. But we should continue to communicate them at least and I have plotted out the intended progressions for Criminals, Strike Teams, Ruffians, Law Enforcement, Canines and Felines. Knowing what you adjust may require I make an adjustment or two to that progression which is why we need to keep it all completely discussed.

    I HAD it charted out but a power outage messed up that document... grr... I still have the basis of that evaluation just not as broken down as it was.
     
  17. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    7,419
    Location:
    Norway
    K, I was anyway going to evaluate this feature for my civic modmod; since I'm getting to know the kinks of it I might as well through discussions here figure out what would be the best values for the SVN too. Think of it this way I'll make an extreme version of this feature for my modmod for feedback and testing purposes and extract a balanced version from this into the SVN. In the end both versions will converge to be quite similar.

    Edit: Updated this post to how it should have been to begin with; turns out it helps to sleep. ^^ had been awake about 24 hours when I posted that first excel picture, not healthy.
     
  18. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    28,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Ok, initial thoughts... and take it all with a grain of salt. I'm just intending to share some design considerations I was making during the initial establishment of the option.

    The math here shows me a little deeper some of what your thinking is. The numbers end up very high on the extremes of the scales.

    Therefore, it appears you're looking for the system to be a bit more granular.

    This would be difficult to work into the AI evaluating this system since all types of invisibility and visibilities are seen as equal by intensity. For example, if one point of invisibility means something very valuable to Camouflage invisibility but a very minor adjustment on the Size invisibility scale, the AI wouldn't be able to differentiate so the AI would naturally think 'wow... I get THREE points towards a visibility type for this promotion!?! What a great promotion!' and therefore would start sending all its units to automatically select that promo over all other options.

    My point is that all types of invisibility/visibility must operate along similar mathematical scales of value because they are all evaluated equally by the AI for worth.

    There's only so many spaces (tiles) a given unit will be able to have initial visibility. If you get higher numeric values like this, you start making the system a bit more 'see them or don't' anywhere within the range of vision. Only by keeping the ultimate range of intensities low and thus potent will you really get much play where units may not be seen at the outer edge of the visible range but seen once they get closer.

    It looks like you're attempting to work the size increments of threes into the evaluation and do what I did not, which was to consider in full the ramifications of the incremental differences in size. This may not be a bad idea but imo doing so (at least with numbers running this high) quickly runs into problems with the overall scale getting too large for the reasons mentioned above.

    If they can't see you they can't attack you. This may be a problem for my own initial structure in places. If you put units into values where they are nearly impossible to interact with and where its nearly impossible for them to interact with you, it becomes problematic as you start getting units on the board that just take up data and don't perform a role in the game.

    You may have been trying to say we'd need to improve the combat quality but I don't see frogs having much combat quality. However, I'm not sure why Tarantulas are set so low except to guess its due to them being based on a copy of a similar animal - don't think I set the values on that unit. Qualities tie to a lot of things and on animals aren't quite as precisely evaluated as perhaps they could be and not as important to keep as they are but on most player accessed units, it's important to leave them alone usually due to the strength variations and other factors. There could be some units that don't have too great an importance on their current quality assessments I suppose. But units meant for fighting usually are quite precise.

    Currently, with Battalion/Medium setting the basis of 0 size invisibility (because I figure that on the basis of size and volume, a group of 300 people is going to stand out to even poorly observant folks out to the farthest range of vision - unless camouflage comes into the picture) it's only under that point that units begin to (without TRYING to hide) potentially escape notice on the basis of size alone. This keeps size from being TOO big a concealment issue unless you're trying to spot very small group/size units. I don't think it should be too great an influence really.

    Although I was intrigued by how a serpent kept attacking my scout from the next tile over and I wasn't sure if it was camo or size that kept me from having visibility on it. This kind of ability for the option to throw off a player's confidence in one solution to a problem or another is a lot of what I think would make it fun and size invis can add a dimension to that.

    But should size itself really be a VERY big factor when it can really only consider units that aren't really trying to blend in or evade detection? (Unless of course the Low Profile promo is taken I suppose.)

    There's a few ground rule dangers here.

    Being a game option, and one interacting with size matters which is also a game option, it gives us a blessed ability to have an even more unique game that clearly delineates where both options have added to the other and built onto each other. However, this means the following ground rules apply. (They can be broken but it can get very complicated to juggle if they are.)

    - You cannot add or remove visibility or invisibility to existing promotions.

    You can break this rule by making the original promotion only available when the option is off and make a copy with the additional effects that's only available when the option is on.

    However, if you then add in a third option then you need a copy of the promotion for when both are off, one for each when either one alone is on, and one for when both is on (4 total). Therefore, I veered far away from having promos from the core getting any vis/invis interaction and I also didn't make any size visibility adjustments on anything but promos that require both options being active as well.

    - You can get away with units and unitcombats having vis/invis modifiers but if you do that for size vis/invis modifiers, when Hide and Seek is on but Size Matters is not, you'll still have those size vis/invis modifiers. But you won't have the basis for size vis/invis values from the size matters unitcombats so will likely get some awkward interactions that weren't intended.

    -Therefore, I've currently quarantined Size visibility and invisiblity adjustments to PURELY promotions with nothing else that are only on when both options are on and to Quality, Size, and Group Unitcombats that will only be on when Size Matters is on but their size invisibility and visibility tags will have no effect when Hide and Seek is off since they are not assigned to units if Size Matters is off.

    -This is why you don't have size invisibility/visibility modifiers for specific plot factors or on any unitcombats aside from Quality Unitcombats - they would invade the game that has Hide and Seek but not Size Matters.

    -Hunting sight is already a promotion in the main game so the above should be considered. However, a new set of promos for size visibility that's linked to hunters only may well be a good idea considering its mostly hunters that would want to find the small creatures that go unnoticed by larger more standard military units.

    Ok, this makes for a math check time on my end. Currently, Solo (4) plus Medium (0) makes for 4. Standard units would be able to spot him but only in the adjacent tile. Based on size alone that is.

    And I figure this was right because this singular individual is not trying to avoid being spotted necessarily (Although he could easily take the Low Profile promo and be completely invisible to the Standard Quality opponent) and there's around 300 sets of eyes that could see him (though as I think about that, volume doesn't have a visibility modifier - but maybe it should, which would require restructuring the whole thing a bit - but then it would not favor hunters). Sure he's hard to notice but not impossible to notice.

    So your system would lean a bit more towards giving power to invisibility but I fear giving too much power to invisibility, particularly invisibility of the natural, not trying to achieve it sort, is dangerous to the game experience because it could not only make things more confusing but also lead to too many situations where neither unit can know the other is there.

    That said, I'm just giving my own theoretical take on the matter. I think it's hard to guess if players may prefer leaning more towards units being more difficult to detect or interact with or towards units being easier to see. But keep in mind the diminishing effect of visibility and distance and that the goal is to make it so that units often fit into that category where you CAN see them but only if you're right up next to them. There's a golden surprise effect when you walk up next to something that could be a real threat to your unit and reveal it but too late to keep it from attacking ;)

    EDIT:
    I've been wondering something similar here... Perhaps low sizes should get bonuses to see? Kinda makes sense but more importantly it would from a game perspective. I suppose a dog is more likely to see a rabbit than a person is.
     
  19. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    7,419
    Location:
    Norway
    Correct, I felt the range you initially set up was too restrictive to really do much within.
    I hadn't considered that, hmm, would it not be possible to set AIWeight for the promotions to balance this out? I know that's a crowbar we should avoid using, but...
    Would not a unit with 16 visibility have 16,15,14,13 visibility for those 4 tiles out? The only issue I see is that it is hard to evaluate if a promotion that gives vis.-range would be worth picking as there are some intensity values where additional range would not help as much as with other intensities. Does vis.-range restrict itself to specific invisibility types? One could just avoid defining promotions that give visibility range to only Invisible_Size. Would it be possible to get intensity to drop by two point per tile out Invisible_Size, from last example 16,14,12,10?
    I don't think this would be a problem if we change all master hunters to be Divine-Solo so they can see Solo-Diminuative with only Hunting Sight I. If we further made Hunting Instruction building give "HS I" for free to all visiting hunter units this would really not be a problem as only animals are diminuative. Only high-tech nanobotstuff is Size_Fine and this could be addressed with special nanobot hunting units.
    Some higher, some lower. Tarantulas have exceptional quality while I would rather set them, and the dartfrog, to pathethic quality these are units that should not be able to take actions based on a unit being some kilometers away from it unless it's so many or large a unit that the earth rumbles. Actually; this makes me want to ask you if you could make a tag that gives additional vis. intensity only to the tile that the unit is observing from, this would work even better if you manage to create a mission to start battle between two units sharing a tile.
    Ah, I balanced the numbers thinking of battalion as 108 (solo=1-2, party=4, squad=12, etc.*3 &#8594; countless=708588). Anyways, I used a similar reasoning as only incapable&#8594;pathetic would be unable to notice a battalion of soldiers. The only difference is that I considered incapable to be reserved for units that doesn't react to their environment like the locust swarm, a plant or a blind-deaf/"too sick to stand upright" being; and I considered pathetic to not be far less common in combatant units than you did, meaning mostly reserved for animals and special cases. Even Inferior should be incredible uncommon in trainable combatants, perhaps only disorganized ruffians or some such.
    Unless moving in large numbers, any unit in hostile territory would try to hold a natural low profile, and not go waving their banner high and shouting their lords name and profanities about other cultures in their own language.
    Is it really a big factor if a newly trained Poor Quality unit is capable of identifying a Squad as a potential threat or a target that should be reported up the chain of command. I consider a Poor unit to basically be some randoms who have been conscripted, given weapons and equipment, and told to risk their life without proper salary, motivation or training.

    Hadn't considered that :), but can't a promotion be defined twize and have ongameoption (or dependency) and visibilitychanges in only 1 of them. Won't their effect only be merged with the game-option on?


    I actually didn't know about the low-profile promoline until now; i might have to reevaluate the excel sheet with that in mind. I just didn't think to check as I thought to myself that no promo could change your size ;).


    My thoughts exactly, perhaps a +1 to visibility for each size bigger than colossal and a bigger jump from Size_Diminuative&#8594;Size_Fine (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,10).
     
  20. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012
    Messages:
    3,523
    May biggest fear here is that this will end up in a way that your normal units can't see most units, thus making defending the own territory much harder.

    a) Will you make sure that "normal" units can see other "normal" units, not just 1 tile away?

    b) Will Scouts have a better sight so that you can position them at your boarders to look for enemy armies (not criminals, but normal units)

    c) Can invisible units enter boarders?

    d) If cities give an "invisible" bonus, will normal units still see defenders?

    e) IMO it would be a good idea if wild animals used a different invisible type; and hunters would have a huge bonus to see especially them. Only huge animals would be visible for normal units.
     

Share This Page