C2C: Hunters, Healers and Recon Units

Currently there are 556 Promotions available. What is the goal? 700? More?

The permutations are staggeringly high. Who can possibly know the best combinations? And where on the map those combinations are optimal vs each category of unit? :eek:

C'mon guys more maybe more, but more can be wasteful, superfluous, and counter-intuitive too.

JosEPh

Yeah, I didn't like the promotion thing so much. The units get ridiculous power from it. I think it's better to focus on expanding the stats on units.
 
Currently there are 556 Promotions available. What is the goal? 700? More?

The permutations are staggeringly high. Who can possibly know the best combinations? And where on the map those combinations are optimal vs each category of unit? :eek:

C'mon guys more maybe more, but more can be wasteful, superfluous, and counter-intuitive too.

JosEPh

Well not all are for all groups. There are different types ...

1. Heroic - These have a green background and are only available to hero units.

2. Field Commanders - These Have a red background and are only available to Field Commanders.

3. Animal - These have a Brown Background and are only for Animal units.

4. Worker - These are for only worker units

5. Canine - These are for only canine units.

6. Spy - These are only for spy units.

7. Event - These Have a gray background and are given through random events.

8. Religious - These are given by special religious buildings.

9. Healer - These are only for Healing units.

10. Law Enforcement - These are only for Law Enforcement units.

11. Terrain - These promotions are made to deal with te various types of terrain.

12. Equipment/Training - These promotions are given by special crafting/training buildings.

13. Astrology - These promotions are given at random when the unit is created.

14. General - These have a blue Background.

15. Powerful - These promotions have a purple background and are a bit more powerful than general promotions.

12. Random Terrain - These are random promotions that sometimes are made on a unit that help them on certain types of terrains.

13. Other - I am not sure what would fall under this category.

Personally I don't like the Random Terrain ones. They seem redundant when we have the normal terrain ones. And the Astrology ones are a bit questionable as well. And the Powerful ones could use more balance/testing.
 
Remind me are the following additive on promotions ie if promo 1 has 10% and promo 2 has 20% then a unit with both has 30%?
Code:
<UnitCombatMod>
	<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL</UnitCombatType>
	<iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMod>
If so then the hunter promotions are wrong and need to be modified a bit.
They are additive.
Currently there are 556 Promotions available. What is the goal? 700? More?

The permutations are staggeringly high. Who can possibly know the best combinations? And where on the map those combinations are optimal vs each category of unit? :eek:

C'mon guys more maybe more, but more can be wasteful, superfluous, and counter-intuitive too.

JosEPh
I can't even begin to disagree strongly enough. You made a mention in the previous post about the pokemon similarity and guess what... that's exactly the sort of flavor one should get from promotions. I still feel that promotions are one of the most underdeveloped layers of C2C. When you compare to the development on buildings (which are city promotions really in effect), wonders, unit types, etc, our development on promos is infantile. 500? Too much? I'm thinking 5k.

The complaint that the permutations are so extensive is exactly what makes it more enjoyable - to have a wide variety of options. Options make a strategy game strategic. No perfect way to approach anything should exist. No strategy should be beyond trumping with another that could be then trumped by another that the first would trump. An absolute mastery of a game should be completely impossible. Otherwise the game grows stale and loses its replay value.

Each unit should be developable to the point that you know them intimately for their uniqueness, unable to further be just another unit among many. Each should be a potential unique specialist of its own achievement, useful thereafter for its own unique 'role' in your strategies. In short, they should grow to emerge as characters with meaning in the game - again enhancing the game element of 'story'. The means to accomplish this is the very vast permutations you mention as somehow being a bad thing.
 
Each unit should be developable to the point that you know them intimately for their uniqueness, unable to further be just another unit among many. Each should be a potential unique specialist of its own achievement, useful thereafter for its own unique 'role' in your strategies. In short, they should grow to emerge as characters with meaning in the game - again enhancing the game element of 'story'. The means to accomplish this is the very vast permutations you mention as somehow being a bad thing.

That's why I am looking forward to the Combat mod.
 
@T-Brd,
Mark these words, the day is coming when others will start complaining that they "just don't use x and y promotions at all".

5K promotions? If that happens, which I don't think will (just because of processing limitations which is something you obviously are not taking into consideration at all), you will have lost a significant number of players by then. Tedium over trying to figure out optimal combinations will drive them away. That is Why I'm sounding alarms, overkill from over enthusiasm.

And Hydro you've already experienced this somewhat with your buildings so you should know better?!

Oh well I hope you will learn that good game design is keeping the player interested and Not overwhelming with 5K choices. Good Luck with that. :p

JosEPh
 
@T-Brd,
Mark these words, the day is coming when others will start complaining that they "just don't use x and y promotions at all".

5K promotions? If that happens, which I don't think will (just because of processing limitations which is something you obviously are not taking into consideration at all), you will have lost a significant number of players by then. Tedium over trying to figure out optimal combinations will drive them away. That is Why I'm sounding alarms, overkill from over enthusiasm.

And Hydro you've already experienced this somewhat with your buildings so you should know better?!

Oh well I hope you will learn that good game design is keeping the player interested and Not overwhelming with 5K choices. Good Luck with that. :p

JosEPh

5K promotions (which is probably a bit on the large size, but illustratively) does NOT mean 5K choices. Many promotions are automatic promotions only available to certain units, bestowed by things other than elective choice on the user's part when promoting a unit. Also (as has been pointed out) any one unit type will only have a small subset available, so for any given unit the choices may remain limited even if the total number of game-wide promotions is large. A good example that has been around for some time is the religious promotion available on various mounted units from Tengri - are you of the opinion that they (and other similar ones) should be removed?
 
@koshling,
The Tengrii and similar were already in the game long before this latest batch, for example throwing units, came into being. So No on them, But. Before you could add archery and melee to units but now in some circumstances either of those 2 maybe superceded by the Throwing promo. And then you can't get the archery or melee until a unit can have 3 or more promotions. Just one example of the new complexity issue, And the overlap.

Sorry it's ruffling feathers but all these added and (from my viewpoint) unnecessary layers of promotions are causing residual problems for units that were one time useful and relatively balanced, but not any longer. Maybe it is just another balance issue but is it a necessary one?

@T-Brd,
Sorry man but I just think you've gone way overboard with some of this. So I guess we will be in disagreement over it.

I probably in the minority here (can't wait for DRJ to pipe in :p ), so I've voiced my disenchantment over it and will move on. You all Are the Modders and you will do what you think is best. I either adapt or move on to something else.

JosEPh
 
You're right, Joseph! I can't wait for more content, more choices, deeper strategy layers and sort of "personality" for single units/batallions!!!

On the other hand you are right, there could be something that will be complained about but that's exactly what we are doing here we test new features and balance them, controversial ones are given an option.
Joseph, it's just like you have a default negative/anticomplexity mindset for every topic! In a way, as I see it, you act like a little child that says "no I don't want to eat my vegetables".
Well, once you're forced to eat them (to get desert), you realize the vegetables taste just fine together with the meat and meat alone wouldn't be perfect as well.

Sometimes, in restaurants, you can listen to kids at the next table, complaining
"I don't want to eat this or that" and often, their parents give in.. that actually the worst for their children because by not being strict and exercising their power, the kids will realize that behaviour works. They might be in the terrible twos now but the children will thank them later for the more variety of experiences - and thus a certain open-mindedness towards even more experiences to come in adult life. My political compass signature suggests I am quite un-authoritarian but it's not at -9,99, you see? :)
 
:sarcasm:

Oi Vey!!! :rolleyes:

Thank you Dr Spock. :bowdown:

What is with this "we" stuff? Since when did you become a member of the Team? I don't believe I've seen your username anywhere in the list. Has Strategyonly given you a seat or acknowledgement to your contributions? Or, as always, is this just more self assuming chest thumping from a braggadocios personality? :hmm::think:

As W.C. Fields used to say, "Go away young man you bother me". :mischief: :rotfl:

JosEPh
 
IMHO, getting promotions is too easy now and all problems originate from it.

More possible choices might be good. I don't disagree. But how can there be choices or strategies if you can get everything very easily?

With many animals we can get now, accumulating experiences is just a piece of cake.
There will be super-powerful units having tremendous numbers of promotions even though you are still in the prehistoric era.
After that? Things will get worse. You can get more experiences more easily with those units and newer, more powerful units from techs you've researched.

Maybe animals should be more powerful so that they can't be killed easily or required experiences per each promotion level should be increased. Something needs to be done.
 
IMHO, getting promotions is too easy now and all problems originate from it.

More possible choices might be good. I don't disagree. But how can there be choices or strategies if you can get everything very easily?

With many animals we can get now, accumulating experiences is just a piece of cake.
There will be super-powerful units having tremendous numbers of promotions even though you are still in the prehistoric era.
After that? Things will get worse. You can get more experiences more easily with those units and newer, more powerful units from techs you've researched.

Maybe animals should be more powerful so that they can't be killed easily or required experiences per each promotion level should be increased. Something is needed to be done.

Required experience increases pretty dramatically with level, so that's self-correcting. HOWVEER, too many FREE promotions, or random-combat-given (which are also free) are not bound by the constraint of 'level' so I agree that those are too easily acquired (not so much the exp-bought ones though)
 
climat said:
Maybe animals should be more powerful so that they can't be killed easily or required experiences per each promotion level should be increased. Something is needed to be done.

C2C had this with sea creatures (monsters) who won a few fights
(actually, I made the suggestion a long time ago and Dancing H. later reinvented, coded and improved it).
I liked it but some players complained the surviving monsters were too strong after winning like 4 battles ( only a few ever did) and had to invest like 10-15 ships to kill a very experienced monster (which, a few times in a game, is absolutely nice and thrilling, I think).
Imo we could have equivalent promotions also for land animals, at least for a "Big Beasts" game-option (which in combination with "raging barbarians" must be really hard...) :)



@Jospeh
Spoiler :

You see Joseph, you are from another generation, way back when status and symbols for status were important. The world changes, as nowadays many more people realize that by applying the basic democratic mechanisms (and this mod is in big parts basic democratic, as it has a forum, which acts much like one of a greek city state; and a more or less open distribution structure via SVN), the power of the situation, not the power of the achievements can make the difference for the future. So, J., it might even be you, who by an (accidental?) progressive idea to enhance and enrich the game would have be to be praised by me and sincerely so.
But it doesn't matter how experienced you are, in fact like reading ideas from new participants rather than from old members (you know they have good ideas!) just so you have a fresh element from outside, so see where the "flow" could be improved. You, on the other hand have a big "NAY" tatooted on your nick and that saddens me.

You know I work as a betatester since like forever and found many bugs or ingame situations just like you and I contributed many ideas, big and small, so how do you question my experience by refering to some sort of list?
Rather than to try in coding I decided to look upon the game from a gameplay experience point of view (trying to enhance a very [maximum] complex yet playable simulation concept with ideas) while you are my nemesis in these matters.
Its good you are because the dualism creates friction and the frictions can be good for progress) but can't you please try to have more inclusive suggestions like explaining why this and that is not balanced and imagining an alternative way to simulate something (which then will have to be discussed)
instead of promoting just plain removal of a feature?
Thats repressive and unconstructive, imo.

A hint to interesting literature about ideas and the problems realizing them Vladimir Dimitrievich Dudintsev a quote from his book "Not by bread alone"

NeKhlebomEdinym.jpg



Every idea that is able to survive has a life of its own, becomes self-sufficient
searches its strong man, who guarantees that it flourishes. The idea prefers a marriage of calculation to one of love. (...) The idea gladly cheats on its first lover, it rather keeps up with an influental and energic sponsor.


converted from the german translation "Jede Idee, die lebensfähig ist, hat ein Eigenleben, wird selbständig - sie sucht sich selbst ihren starken Mann, der dafür garantiert, dass sie gedeiht. Die Idee zieht eine Ehe aus Berechnung einer Ehe aus Liebe vor!" [...] "Die Idee betrügt gerne ihren ersten Liebhaber, sie hält es lieber mit einem einflussreichen und energischen Gönner."
 
And Hydro you've already experienced this somewhat with your buildings so you should know better?!

Oh well I hope you will learn that good game design is keeping the player interested and Not overwhelming with 5K choices. Good Luck with that. :p

5K promotions (which is probably a bit on the large size, but illustratively) does NOT mean 5K choices. Many promotions are automatic promotions only available to certain units, bestowed by things other than elective choice on the user's part when promoting a unit. Also (as has been pointed out) any one unit type will only have a small subset available, so for any given unit the choices may remain limited even if the total number of game-wide promotions is large. A good example that has been around for some time is the religious promotion available on various mounted units from Tengri - are you of the opinion that they (and other similar ones) should be removed?

Same goes for buildings. Not all buildings can be built in the same city. Also buildings get replaced or obsolete over time.

And specifically to Joe, I think having more choices WILL keep the player interested. There is a learning curve, but I think our core audience are the type of players who like more anyways. Otherwise they would not have even attempted to play such a huge and complex mod. I know they are less vocal, but those players that feel like TB and I are there.

I know it sounds selfish but I am not sure you realize who we are making the game for. We as a group put in stuff we personally would like to see. Sure we take ideas from the players and ask for feedback, but when it gets down to it we (the team) are the ones that ultimately decide what gets in and how the mod forms. The fact that others even like the stuff I put in the mod still shocks me, since my "more is more" type of modding is not for everyone. And I never expected C2C to become so popular either. I thought it was just going to be a little known side mod like HAND was. Shows you what the power of teamwork can do.
 
@Hydro,
In case you overlooked this, I'll quote myself.
You all Are the Modders and you will do what you think is best. I either adapt or move on to something else.

JosEPh
 
@Joseph,

It's not like I don't understand your opinion here. And its not that I don't care. But I'm feeling it's coming from a mentality that would prefer the game stabilizes so you can feel like ultimately you've 'got it down' and figured out. Really, the goal is to deny this feeling forever, even once development is complete. Not to fully deny it, but to always enable the sensation that there's still more to figure out about the structure.

Again, your comment about the impact of the Throwing class and how it's toughened the decisions to be made there were exactly the sort of dynamic I was hoping to introduce... make it a little harder to figure out the 'best' practice, make a 'best' practice a little more out of reach entirely. I don't know about you but I'm playing this mod (and helping to develop it) because I played Civ4 BtS to the point that it got to be too routine, too easy to figure out how to get around any of the challenges it presented, too... simple. Isn't that one of the reasons you've been playing mods like this one too?
 
Why should the New Throwing promotions Block off the start level archery and melee? That to me makes no sense at all.

Toughen the decisions, No it denies decisions because you Must use this Promo 1st before you can get what used to be base promos. That's not dynamics that obfuscation.

And I really dislike it when someone, anyone, thinks they can read what's in my mind or my mental state because I bring up an objection. None of you can read my face or my mind thru a post on a forum.

The Mod needs some balance to build upon. This constant state of imbalance is making it harder for it to become balanced or even stable. How many new players come in wanting to know if this mod is "stable". And when they find out it's not but in an ongoing beta process some take up the challenge and others say I'll wait then.

If no one dares bring up an objection or criticism, (and it's getting to be that way for me again, because every time I bring up what I think can be a trouble spot I get backlash instead of consideration of the point), how are you as a modder to know that your product has problems? Or how it's being recieved? You're not focused on the end result at all! But only on the process.

I have more to say (sometime)about Game Design and sticking with it but I'm cutting it off here.

JosEPh
 
Why should the New Throwing promotions Block off the start level archery and melee? That to me makes no sense at all.

Toughen the decisions, No it denies decisions because you Must use this Promo 1st before you can get what used to be base promos. That's not dynamics that obfuscation.

JosEPh

Oh so that is why I haven't been seeing the archery and melee promotions! The ones against throwing units go obsolete so quickly! Unless a grenadeer is a throwing unit.
 
I didn't program the throwing promotions to have anything to do with Archery and Melee promotions, certainly not in such a way that the throwing promos would be a prerequisite to either one. Is that how it is right now?

I'm going to look into that because that's not the intention at all. Could it possibly be that the tech prerequisites, as they were set for Shock and Cover promo lines before I added the Sidestep promo line, have a bit later tech requirements and that's been throwing off the assumptions here since Sidestep starts being accessible nearly right out of the gate? Anyhow... I'll take a close look at the prereq thing before saying more because I didn't mean any of those Anti-CC promo lines to be prerequisites to another Anti-CC promo lines.

And keep in mind, Joe, our reflections on our impressions of what we're hearing from you is shared not to make accusations but rather to let you know how we've received your message and a lot of that may have to do with how it has been presented. I can certainly accept that these assertions are incorrect but at the same time I'd like a correction rather than a mere refusal that there's any truth to what I've said. In that way I can more fully understand your sometimes difficult to understand perspective. My search to understand is my way of offering respect for your opinion. I don't think you're unreasonable... just a little confusing when you're obviously frustrated.
 
I agree with Joseph in this case. The too many promotions make the game complicated and confusing for me. I have lost the overview what be optimal for my current fight situation so I give my units just any promotion that might fit. If it doesn´t work I wait for the next generation units but it is too tedious to check all the possible promotions for the next built unit. And I also don´t think that worker promotions add to gameplay.

And saying all this coming from about the same generation and country as DRJ...
 
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