Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You really are a Godsend Koshling!
C2C: Hunters, Healers and Recon Units
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I was thinking perhaps your new(er) Monk/Fanatic could convert units like in AOE2. It could use similar code as the subdue animal except instead of turning a wild animal into a subdued animal it would convert an enemy unit into one of your units. Note this could have a whole new set of conversion vs. anti-conversion promotions. Here are some ideas from AOE2 converted into Civ4 ...
Redemption: Can convert Siege Weapons
Fervor: Double Monk Speed
Sanctity: +50% Defense
Atonement: Can Convert other Monks
Illumination: +50% Faster Conversion
Faith: +50% Conversion Resistance
So what do you think?
Redemption: Can convert Siege Weapons
Fervor: Double Monk Speed
Sanctity: +50% Defense
Atonement: Can Convert other Monks
Illumination: +50% Faster Conversion
Faith: +50% Conversion Resistance
So what do you think?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Some fun possible ideas. Along the same lines though, fixing the archer distance attack would be just as prioritorized.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Well if distant attack was fixed possibly distance "conversion" would be cool.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Don't know how it would work. Monks are defend only aren't they?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
They could all be distance targeting abilities (buttons) and perhaps can only work once for each monk unit? Or once per so many rounds? Or the Monk gains energy points for every successful defense they survive and such points are spent to undergo these 'mission' actions?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Well how the subdue animals work? Basically the monk would battle with another unit and sometimes the unit would join you (die and then reward you with the same unit). Having them defense only would be even better since it would keep you from actively converting other units.
Another example is the slavery mod. But instead of getting slaves you would get the same unit you converted. Note if that s to hard to do then you could just make a new unit called like "Convert" or something that would work like a Slave that could upgrade into a unit or maybe join a city and help spread your state religion.
I like the mission actions idea.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
There are two issues with these units as far as I can see.
1. Currently only health care units can get most of the health promotions.
2. A unit can only upgrade if the unit it is upgrading to can have the promotions of the unit being upgraded.
Health Promotions
The idea behind the Health care mod is that support staff, in this case medical staff, are needed to keep the army or navy functioning in war.
Currently they can only get limited non health based promotions. These are CombatI, DesertI and ArticI. Should they get more?
Should recon/hunters units be able get at least the lowest level health promotions?
In fact I think the whole promotion lines need a rethink in C2C as we are getting the possibility of some strange combinations of promotions.
1. Currently only health care units can get most of the health promotions.
2. A unit can only upgrade if the unit it is upgrading to can have the promotions of the unit being upgraded.
Health Promotions
The idea behind the Health care mod is that support staff, in this case medical staff, are needed to keep the army or navy functioning in war.
Currently they can only get limited non health based promotions. These are CombatI, DesertI and ArticI. Should they get more?
Should recon/hunters units be able get at least the lowest level health promotions?
In fact I think the whole promotion lines need a rethink in C2C as we are getting the possibility of some strange combinations of promotions.
Attachments
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
1. No.
2. Recon units are already super powerful. They should not get healing benefits too.
3. Well we have 3 main groups Scouts (Can see far and get est results from huts), Rangers (Can get the best results from subdued animals) and Rogues (Can hide and be sneaky). None of these groups should be very tough vs real combat units like melee, archers or mounted. Nor should they get the benefits of a healer unit either.
2. Recon units are already super powerful. They should not get healing benefits too.
3. Well we have 3 main groups Scouts (Can see far and get est results from huts), Rangers (Can get the best results from subdued animals) and Rogues (Can hide and be sneaky). None of these groups should be very tough vs real combat units like melee, archers or mounted. Nor should they get the benefits of a healer unit either.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
1.?
It is a fact that only health care units can get health/heal promotions. Saying no wont change it. Or do you mea that they should be the only ones that do.2. Recon units don't travel in stacks so unless they a get a healing promotion they don't do their job. At least that is what I thinkTalin2009 is saying. We are alking self heal here not healing other units.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Let me repost with quotes ...
1. No.
2. Recon units are already super powerful. They should not get healing benefits too.
3. Well we have 3 main groups Scouts (Can see far and get est results from huts), Rangers (Can get the best results from subdued animals) and Rogues (Can hide and be sneaky). None of these groups should be very tough vs real combat units like melee, archers or mounted. Nor should they get the benefits of a healer unit either.
1. No.
2. Recon units are already super powerful. They should not get healing benefits too.
3. Well we have 3 main groups Scouts (Can see far and get est results from huts), Rangers (Can get the best results from subdued animals) and Rogues (Can hide and be sneaky). None of these groups should be very tough vs real combat units like melee, archers or mounted. Nor should they get the benefits of a healer unit either.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
But they are getting exp now and can't use it!
I have modded it so they can get the base promotions that stop terrain damage. There are two desert and arctic promotions. before the base one gave a defensive bonus and a movement bonus. I moved these up one and inserted a new base promotion which defends against terrain damage and gives a small defensive bonus.
I have also experimented with giving them the combat 1 promotion but it is not much use to them. so I will probably remove it.
The Monk unit is a health care unit which is a defender. If we don't give it defensive promotions then it should be dumped. If the units it upgrades to can't also get these promotions a Monk with those promotions wont be able to upgrade.
Currently Recon units (hunters and scouts) can get far too many different promotions. I reckon they should only be able to get the terrain ones, one strength one and the self heal ones. But then what about the sneaks and sharpshooters?
I have modded it so they can get the base promotions that stop terrain damage. There are two desert and arctic promotions. before the base one gave a defensive bonus and a movement bonus. I moved these up one and inserted a new base promotion which defends against terrain damage and gives a small defensive bonus.
I have also experimented with giving them the combat 1 promotion but it is not much use to them. so I will probably remove it.
The Monk unit is a health care unit which is a defender. If we don't give it defensive promotions then it should be dumped. If the units it upgrades to can't also get these promotions a Monk with those promotions wont be able to upgrade.
Currently Recon units (hunters and scouts) can get far too many different promotions. I reckon they should only be able to get the terrain ones, one strength one and the self heal ones. But then what about the sneaks and sharpshooters?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
First:
Now, we can have a problem with limiting units, as in with a national unit limit, when they are upgradeable, we need to consider some similar limits or something like that. Anyhow, yeah, not an issue. I could find a few examples from the current upgrade paths I'm sure.
I believe Scouts and Rangers, but NOT Rogues, should have self healing promos available. March (heal on the go), and a line that improves self heal rates. Why not? Taking them is balanced nicely against the alternative possibilities they can go for, no? And self sufficiency and survival in the wild often requires a personal knowledge of first aid and herbalism - though not to the extent that one may be all that good at working with wounded others.
Once again, we find ourselves flying in the face of logic for the sake of establishing 'game' value limits and balance VS using pure rationale to determine what to allow and what not to and assuming that the closest model to reality will lead to a natural sense of balance. If Recon units are super powerful, it is because there is not enough to counter them. And there isn't. We have anti melee and mounted that goes up three stages and we have NOTHING in terms of an anti Recon promotion chain??? Ok, I understand why - we are only beginning to think of adding new promos - but as things are now, it needs to be done. And perhaps we should give melee and mounted some natural % bonus against Recon IF attacking and not defending? Or give recon a -to defense overall? (thus they should not be good at TAKING an attack...)
Ok, so issue 3: I was thinking about posting this here and I'm glad y'all got me started in this thread. I believe that we need to give some of the healers a steadily improving healing 'mission' much like the way we have bombard buttons for collateral units and such. These 'missions' would be for 'healing'. This would really put them apart from the standard way we've always viewed healers. A highly advanced healing unit could, once per round, heal a given unit of a given 'type' up to full strength, while early herbalists may be able to heal any land unit 10% with use of such a mission. AI would have to thus be informed of the ways to access these traits but they could be cool.
Then we could make poison units add a 'promotion' a negative effect from the poison that drags on the struck unit, to any unit that manages to survive a battle with the poison unit. Some healers could have missions that could 'remove' these negative 'poisoned' promos.
Just some thinking going on that may make this area a bit more enjoyable.
I call bull on this one. This is exactly why I always make sure to properly build an assload of crossbowmen and grenadiers in preparation for upgrading them into city defense promoted machine gunners.
Now, we can have a problem with limiting units, as in with a national unit limit, when they are upgradeable, we need to consider some similar limits or something like that. Anyhow, yeah, not an issue. I could find a few examples from the current upgrade paths I'm sure.
I believe Scouts and Rangers, but NOT Rogues, should have self healing promos available. March (heal on the go), and a line that improves self heal rates. Why not? Taking them is balanced nicely against the alternative possibilities they can go for, no? And self sufficiency and survival in the wild often requires a personal knowledge of first aid and herbalism - though not to the extent that one may be all that good at working with wounded others.
Once again, we find ourselves flying in the face of logic for the sake of establishing 'game' value limits and balance VS using pure rationale to determine what to allow and what not to and assuming that the closest model to reality will lead to a natural sense of balance. If Recon units are super powerful, it is because there is not enough to counter them. And there isn't. We have anti melee and mounted that goes up three stages and we have NOTHING in terms of an anti Recon promotion chain??? Ok, I understand why - we are only beginning to think of adding new promos - but as things are now, it needs to be done. And perhaps we should give melee and mounted some natural % bonus against Recon IF attacking and not defending? Or give recon a -to defense overall? (thus they should not be good at TAKING an attack...)
Ok, so issue 3: I was thinking about posting this here and I'm glad y'all got me started in this thread. I believe that we need to give some of the healers a steadily improving healing 'mission' much like the way we have bombard buttons for collateral units and such. These 'missions' would be for 'healing'. This would really put them apart from the standard way we've always viewed healers. A highly advanced healing unit could, once per round, heal a given unit of a given 'type' up to full strength, while early herbalists may be able to heal any land unit 10% with use of such a mission. AI would have to thus be informed of the ways to access these traits but they could be cool.
Then we could make poison units add a 'promotion' a negative effect from the poison that drags on the struck unit, to any unit that manages to survive a battle with the poison unit. Some healers could have missions that could 'remove' these negative 'poisoned' promos.
Just some thinking going on that may make this area a bit more enjoyable.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Dancing Hoskuld
What are all the promotions they can get?
@Dancing Hoskuld
Whats your Desert Combat and Arctic Combat base like? It should have some sort of benefit in case the player doesn't choose terrain damage. Maybe something like the Woodsman I. The current stats are ...
I think they should be changed so they are more equal Something like this ...
In addition i think we need new promotions for the Mountains and Marshes.
Note that the Fieldsman Promotions should no longer give a Benefit to Mash terrain.
Please consider changing them to these.
What are all the promotions they can get?
@Dancing Hoskuld
Whats your Desert Combat and Arctic Combat base like? It should have some sort of benefit in case the player doesn't choose terrain damage. Maybe something like the Woodsman I. The current stats are ...
Spoiler :
I think they should be changed so they are more equal Something like this ...
Spoiler :
In addition i think we need new promotions for the Mountains and Marshes.
Spoiler :
Note that the Fieldsman Promotions should no longer give a Benefit to Mash terrain.
Please consider changing them to these.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Everything except health care can get everything except heal promotions! And this is the problem. Health care units can only get heal type promotions.
Exactly what I did. I needed it for subdued animals. I still need to check what promotions wild animals are getting it terrain damage is off.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Colloquialism that I don't understand, at a guess I would say that you disagree. Which means that something else must be going wrong in my games then.
Interesting, it would require python programming which is outside my knowledge especially the bit about getting it to work in multi player.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
But Desert Combat and Arctic Combat are very different desert combat just give 50% defense and no terrain damage while Arctic combat gives not only defense but attack and double movement. Please make them more equal. In addition I noticed even with arctic combat you still get damaged from Snow/Ice terrain. Its only Tundra that you get no damage. Perhaps a more advanced Arctic combat should give you immunity to ice/snow as well.
Also there use to be more than one of each. So I think there are still icon/buttons for them.
Also what do you think about the new stats and peak and marsh themed promotions?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I am still doing too much at one time, but I am finishing off some projects. See my latest update. Does not include any changes from this discussion except adding a new arctic/desert promotion before the existing one. Which means I am now using up all the icons.
Just looking at the health care units and what we can do now. Plus what we maybe able to do later.
Promotions they should be able to get.
- health care units should be the only ones to get healing promotions. Except maybe scouts and explorers only who can get the basic heal self promotion.
- the basic promotions that stop damage from terrain.
- the base increased movement promotion.
Should the be able to get defensive promotions? If they survive an attack what promotions do we want combat promotions to give?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I am still doing too much at one time, but I am finishing off some projects. See my latest update. Does not include any changes from this discussion except adding a new arctic/desert promotion before the existing one. Which means I am now using up all the icons.
But what do those new promotions give? My requests above re-did the Arctic Combat I and Desert Combat I to be more equal since Arctic Combat I is much more powerful than Desert Combat I at the moment.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok, so I suggest that we need a defensive withdrawal promotion chain. They should only be able to defend and they aren't supposed to really stand and take the attack but rather be skilled at getting away. And that would be what they would get for free. All units should be able to get some stars, just in case, which leads to healer units being able to get stars if rather than running, they stand and fight and win.
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