C2C: My Ideas, Suggestions and Concepts

[Thunderbrd]

I've been trying to get through reading this thread for days now.

It covers too much in one thread, while so many of these ideas deserve their own!

But, to touch on a few points.

Praetyre, your timeline is fantastic! Absolutely a brilliant piece of work!

Hydro, not so sure about this embassy concept. I mean, in some ways I like it, but in others, shouldn't embassies be limited to the civilizations you know? But then that kinda goes against what it appears your trying to do, which is a nice concept for reworking UUs and UBs.

I would propose an alternative, which is to melt down the UU and UB system entirely. Remove the whole concept of it mattering what 'civilization' you pick. Make it just a name. Keep some open slots unfilled for UUs and UBs.

Then, take every UU and UB we have and really analize what it is about that civilization that gave that civilization access to this unique thing. Then make a very complex chain of requirements for each UU and UB that determines whether we may add one to our limited list of selected UUs and UBs.

These should not be easy to qualify for, most out of reach of any choices, relying more on some random factors in the map generation, such as: if capital city has two sources of iron and produces more than X starting experience, then that nation may select Praetyres to fill one of its UU slots.

This might be a bit more complicated from a programming angle, but I think it could be done.

Embassies, could then become a way to establish a link to another nearby civilization and adopt one of their selected UUs or UBs.

This way, we never have the same civilizations represented twice. Gone is our limited concept of playing those civilizations that developed on earth thanks to earths unique features, replaced by the completely unique civilizations that will rise on our new worlds.

I also disagree that having a starting wandering camp is a bad idea. I think its absolutely necessary to a good model of the starting eras. If we make it so that the camp itself is rather tough, and if every time it moves it collects the resources from the tile it just moved onto (rather than limiting it to what it can get from 'goody huts') and make it so that it can use gathered production to 'purchase' units and upgrades (proxy buildings that are parallels to the ones you would build in that era and when the camp finally becomes a settlement those buildings are granted immediately to the city) and gold funnels directly into research, than we should have a very realistic Paleolithic and Neolithic era. If anyone has ever played the Barbarians mod that came stock with Warlords, you will know what I mean. I think it could all be done in python as well.

I'm sure there's more to comment on given so many discussions here at once, but I'll leave these for consideration for now.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

Please re-post any Embassy stuff here.

Don't want to clutter his thread too much.

 

[Praetyre]

Sorry to dig up an old thread like this, but better that than deprive folks of a single, up-to-date source on my meager predilections.

A particular issue has arisen, dealing both with gameplay and my own personal PraetyrEarth scenario project. While every other era is stellar in both breadth, pacing and historical accuracy (my only real complaint would be that there ought to be more "chokepoint" technologies to prevent bizarre situations like a civilization that has Lasers but not Algebra), the Ancient era has always proven somewhat of a quandary in both of the aforementioned respects. It's always been the shortest of all the eras in my speed-era-year gameplan, and figures, much like the tree itself, as an awkward mix of the Chalcolithic with a tiny bit of Sumeria and Egypt at the end. While the two ends of the era are chronologically sound (leading from Neolithic advances into those specifically related to the promotion of a Sedentary Lifestyle, and with Monotheism and (formerly) Bronze Working sitting squarely around 2000 BC. There's extremely few civilizations to speak of at this time and all rolls sort of quietly about in a sort of equivalent of Age of Empires Tool Age (I'd probably die of ecstasy if tha game's soundtrack makes it into the Ancient Era).

The problem though, comes with the blending. The Ancient Era is really two eras, much as the Industrial era is really the Victorian era blended with the first half of the 20th century. But unlike the 19th century and it's unparalleledly bloody political fallout, these two eras are at best an awkward union, and at worst the historical/game design equivalent of two rivalrous siblings feuding over positions in a bunk bed. Matters get even worse when we factor in the colossal chasm between some of the Classical era technologies (Alphabets, currency (which should appear practically immediate next to trade), insurance, and monarchy predates Abraham by well over a millenium, and Code of Laws and Construction (what does this do that Shelter Building and Masonry don't already?) are as far apart from Buddhism as the stirrup is from the steam engine.

While I understand that C2C is not meant to be a Rhye's style historical simulator, this has practical implications for gameplay as well. A player is going to find his bronze-based military obsolete almost immediately with the current structuring of that technology versus it's iron successor. The entire Ancient Era currently feels more like a chore, a dull recess between the primal novelty of the Prehistoric and the sword-and-sandals charm of the Classical. This is not intended as an insult or a meaningless whine against this otherwise magnificent mod, but as a bridge to constructive criticism and reform, especially now that most of the tech tree eras have been filled out, which gets us down to revision, redrafting and testing.

Thus, I propose some food for thought in the form of these suggestions:

• Writing and Bronze Working should be the chokepoint technology leading into the Ancient Era, not Slavery, Livestock Domestication and Mysticism. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, but those who don't record it have not begun it. Both should sit around x23 in the chart.
• Ancestor Worship, Copper Working, Mining, Pottery and Stargazing should all be moved back to the Prehistoric. Ancestor Worship and Pottery should succeed Ceremonial Burial, while Stargazing should probably follow Shamanism, though I wouldn't be averse to it preceding it, either. Copper Working should follow Metal Casting, which should follow Mining, which in turn should follow Sedentary Lifestyle. Obsidian Weapons should correspondingly be moved back to succeed Warfare.
• The Wheel should replace Pottery in it's current position in the tech tree. Trade should immediately follow it.
• Aristocracy, Monarchy, Military Training and Priesthood should require Caste System. Code of Laws should immediately succeed Writing and Monarchy, in turn.
• Alphabet should immediate succeed Writing.
• Currency should immediately succeed Trade.
• Iron Working and Philosophy should be the key techs to enter the Classical age. Democracy should still follow Philosophy, but for obvious reasons would sit at x30 rather than x32.

These are just some ideas that jump to mind. Feel free to critique, suggest, discuss etc. if you want.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

One major problem i see is your goal of "historical accuracy". Which history and by whom? European history played out much differently than say Asian history or even the Americas. Chronologically the Americas were way behind in tech level by the time the Europeans came around. Likewise some civilizations never developed key technology such as the Americas lacking Horses and the Wheel or Hawaii lacking metal for a Copper Age.

I then you throw in the fact the player can play any way they want. They can be land locked and forget about sea techs for quite a long time. Thus rather than what happened on Earth we should think "what sort of techs would you need to get this particular tech"?

As for your specific suggestions ...

1. The Ancient Era chokepoint is suppose to be Sedentary Lifestyle. Note that that meant things like Animal Husbandry and Megalith Construction. Going backwards that also ment that to make megaliths you would need a huge workforce which worked well to include slavery. Which is whys its there. Alternatively i wanted Megafauna Domestication to be the (Slavery OR Megafauna Domestication) for Megalith Construction, however SO said it would not work. Note that the Ancient Era has become more of Late Stone Age, Copper Age and Bronze Age all rolled into 1.

2. Prehistoric Era is already so huge and you want to move more techs back? Also why would Copper Working come after Metal Casting? What metal would they be casting if not copper?

At any rate here is the tech tree. We went over this tons of times when making these eras. I don't really want to have to re-do them all again.

A diagram o flow chart would be nice if you are serous on wanting to redo things.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Praetyre I agree that there are some flaws in the tech tree as it stands and would like to make some changes also. I also agree that the Prehistoric -> Ancient -> Classical era spread and boundaries aren't quite right.

There has been confusion as to what each era represents. Or at least I have been confused so have not spoken up. I assumed that

• Prehistoric = Wood, Stone and composite tools
• Ancient = Copper and Bronze tools
• Classic = Iron age +

@Praetyre

One major problem i see is your goal of "historical accuracy". Which history and by whom? European history played out much differently than say Asian history or even the Americas. Chronologically the Americas were way behind in tech level by the time the Europeans came around. Likewise some civilizations never developed key technology such as the Americas lacking Horses and the Wheel or Hawaii lacking metal for a Copper Age.

I then you throw in the fact the player can play any way they want. They can be land locked and forget about sea techs for quite a long time. Thus rather than what happened on Earth we should think "what sort of techs would you need to get this particular tech"?

As for your specific suggestions ...

1. The Ancient Era chokepoint is suppose to be Sedentary Lifestyle. Note that that meant things like Animal Husbandry and Megalith Construction. Going backwards that also ment that to make megaliths you would need a huge workforce which worked well to include slavery. Which is whys its there. Alternatively i wanted Megafauna Domestication to be the (Slavery OR Megafauna Domestication) for Megalith Construction, however SO said it would not work. Note that the Ancient Era has become more of Late Stone Age, Copper Age and Bronze Age all rolled into 1.

2. Prehistoric Era is already so huge and you want to move more techs back? Also why would Copper Working come after Metal Casting? What metal would they be casting if not copper?

At any rate here is the tech tree. We went over this tons of times when making these eras. I don't really want to have to re-do them all again.

A diagram o flow chart would be nice if you are serous on wanting to redo things.

2. Gold.

Btw, Since the AI doesn't know where resources are, I thing the revele for copper should come well before "Copper Working". Same for the other resources.

 

[Praetyre]

My assumption was that Prehistoric represents the Paleolithic and Neolithic (12,000 or 50,000 in my particular scenario BC-6000 BC), the Ancient the Chacolithic and Bronze Ages (6000-500 BC, the age of Mesopotamia and other Semitic civilizations like the Assyrians, Akkadians, Israelites et. al, Egypt, the Olmecs and Xia/Shang dynasty China) and the Classical age the Iron Age (500 BC/AD, "Classical Antiquity", with Hellenes in Europe, Persians and Alexandrian satrapies in the Middle East, Zhou through Southern and Northern dynasty China and most pre-Inca Mesoamerican peoples).

As for crowding the Prehistoric era- I agree to an extent with such a criticism, but I think the best solution to it is twofold- to decrease the cost of the Prehistoric era technologies to make that era last proportionately with the others while increasing costs to lengthen eras like the Classical, and making sure growth rates are kept in good proportion (for instance, the recent Disease thread has some good suggestions which could allow for possibilities like the Justinian plague or the Spanish influenza epidemic to throw the player a sort of reverse-Golden Age curve. Also, some new technologies could be in order for the Ancient and Classical eras, like I mentioned. To some extent, the same applies to the Medieval era too, but given the relative scarcity of written records from that time and the constant barbarian invasions, it's understandable that era would seem somewhat scant.

The point regarding different technologies is also taken, but these civilizations were much more recent in formation and development than the European ones. Had the Olmecs continued throughout the Iron Age, I have no doubt they could have developed a civilization to rival Rome or the European powers that would eventually colonise that area of the world. The Hawaiians, being restricted to a few islands in the Pacific and having only existed as a unified political entity for a brief period during the very early Industrial era, seem an unlikely candidate, metal or otherwise, for any sort of globe-spanning kingdom. In C2C terms, these would be Barbarian Civs that would have started at the Ancient era and stagnated due to diseases (in the case of the Olmec) and lack of population space (in the case of the Hawaiians). China did experience a long period of technological stasis under the Ming Dynasty, but this was due to a deliberate Confucian policy of avoiding potentially unstabilising factors emerging in the political field, rather than the scientific ineptitude of the Chinese people. Otherwise, European and Asian technological developments are not dissimlar, though with the "barbarian" tribes of Europe managing to use their resources (and pillaging a truckload of scientific knowledge from the Romans, no doubt, as the Romans did with the Greeks) to catch up with the ancient "Oriental despotisms". It's all a matter of what resources you have and how late you enter the party.

 

[VineFynn]

I would like to say that the whole months and even weeks each turn was achieved in WW2 1939 mod for Civ 4 bts.
Just saying.

 

[Praetyre]

Indeed it was, and I'm sure it would be easy to put it into C2C but outside of these specialized scenarios, there's no era that calls for it. Assuming you have been building up properly, there's no reason that 600 turns couldn't have as many events, wars, developments etc. as the real 1900-1950 or 1950-2000 periods did. Especially with the speeds your units will be moving with all the intercity infrastructure and airlift technologies you should have built up by that point.

 

[VineFynn]

Indeed it was, and I'm sure it would be easy to put it into C2C but outside of these specialized scenarios, there's no era that calls for it. Assuming you have been building up properly, there's no reason that 600 turns couldn't have as many events, wars, developments etc. as the real 1900-1950 or 1950-2000 periods did. Especially with the speeds your units will be moving with all the intercity infrastructure and airlift technologies you should have built up by that point.

Well, yes, I was just saying that with your Revised game speeds the months per turn system was implemented, and I was saying a place you could get the system from incase you didn't know how.
Not that I doubted you

 

[Praetyre]

As far as I know, C2C has always worked on a months per turn basis, or at least as long as I've been using it (since about version 9, I think). In any case, the game speeds have been further revised since last posting, seeing as they are part of a private project of mine I probably won't release barring big public demand for it. The overall number of turns, particularily in the Classical era, has been increased by about 30-40%, though depending on where things go with the Ancient era I may transfer some turns from Classical to Ancient rather than having Ancient at a piddling 500 like it is now.

 

[strategyonly]

UPDATE Version 14 is out as of 3:15 am, a brand new way to play the game.

 

[strategyonly]

UPDATED 2 Aug 11, 4:15 a.m.

Some of the changes include, almost ALL new terrain, water, coastal waves, etc.

Lots of tweaks to the dll, to IMPROVE turn times, and especially the way the AI NOW works, really bug change on that, need info on the way they are working now.

Brand new way of Culture for each and every civ, has there own way of working the situation were they are placed on a map, with the resources that they have in vicinity.

Added Australia to the core mod as an Oceania Culture.

HALF the size of the old mod, which also means again better turn times.

This is only 1/8 of what "we" have done from version 14 to 15

 

[Hydromancerx]

Great Person Only Techs:

Spoiler :

Okay, this time I will quote a post, since it's fairly recent and fairly summative:

Civic Specific/Great Person Only Buildings:

Spoiler :

There are a couple of very minor revisions to three wonders that would restrict them to particular civics. These should all be very self explanatory, but feel free to ask for my reasoning if you wish:
Central Bank: Corporatist, Green, Guilds, Mercantile, Planned, Regulated, Slavery
Universal Healthcare: Subsidized, Socialized
Women's Suffrage: Democracy, Federal, Republic

Under any other civic, these wonders will neither be able to be build nor have any effect.

Per Thunderbrd's proposal for boosting the power of non-Prophet , I have come up with a list of wonders that, based on historical criteria, should be restricted to the following categories of .
Great Artist
Carhenge
J.S. Bach's Cathedral
Phidias Statue Workshop
Plato's Academy
Rock N Roll
The Sistine Chapel
The Statue of Liberty
Great Doctor
Cure for Cancer
Hippocratic Oath
Great Engineer
Akshardam
Archimede's Workshop
Brandenburg Gate
Leaning Tower of Pisa
Leonardo's Workshop
Mausoleum of Maussallos
Sultan Qaboos Grand Mosque
The Eiffel Tower
World Trade Center
Great General
King Richard's Crusade
Sun Tzu's Art of War
Great Merchant
Adam Smith's Trading Company
Bolshoi
Magellan's Voyage
Marco Polo's Embassy
World News Network
Great Scientist
Copernicus Observatory
Edison's Workshop
Einstein's Laboratory
Isaac Newton's College

In addition, I have listed (national) wonders that should be buildable, but not restricted to solely being built by this type of
Great Artist
Amusement Park
Globe Theatre
Heroic Epic
Modern Art Theatre
Movie Studio
Mt. Rushmore
National Epic
National TV Station
Great Doctor
Medical Clinic
Red Cross
Research Hospital
Great General
West Point
Great Merchant
Amusement Park
Chemical Plant
Fertilizer Plant
Ironworks
National Courier System
National Mint
National TV Station
Recording Studio
Replicator Plant
Rubber Plant
Travel Agency
Treasury
Great Scientist
Computer Center
Deep Space Research Institute
Mind Storage
Nanite Lab
Nano Research Department
National Science Foundation
National Weather Service
Oxford University
Radio Telescope
Replicator Plant
Space Laboratory
Supercollider
Great Spy
Homeland Security Department
Propaganda Net
Radio Telescope

I think that perhaps the GP should be able to make them but not be limited to them. Such as the Heroic Epic can be both built and made by a GP.