C2C Options

[JosEPh_II]

Okay. 1st the AI is very adept at placing wooden towers and palisades (and later forts). They are using them to "stake out" new city sites. So that when they place a tribe or settler the new city may already have 1 or more cultured tiles that the new city can use. So they are not losing any 2nd pop that I have seen (not saying it does not happen, but it is rare if it does cause I've yet to see it). Then again when does the Great bath become available? I've not had it for so long I can't remember what tech even gives it. Nor have I seen an AI wilt because they do have it.

And as I keep saying entertainers and AI coding to Make the AI take one along is really not necessary at this time. And may never be necessary either.

You do realize that by the time you have Pioneers and Colonists that there is not much city placement usually left in most games except for those that have big, big maps and started with only a handful of AI as the game plays out now.

By the way, don't act like I'm not dropping the subject because I have an emotional attachment to it. Alternative answers would be great. I just want to ensure there ARE answers to the dilemmas produced.

That is just it, what dilemmas? You say there was/is. Problem is I have not come across any up thru Classical era. At least give me the Game set up Options, Civ/leader, Map etc. used for that particular game so I can try to reproduce it. Iirc it was a Snail game with Rev On and must have had RCS as well.

And I have yet to have a new city "starve out". And I have not seen the AI have one either during regular game play. (No I have not checked out every AI in WB to see if they do have one happen.) What I have seen from an occasional look into the WB is that the AI is moving right along. And on Deity planting cities like wildfire. You know I'm an expansionist and on Deity the AI is leaving me in the dust picking up the crumbs. If they had cities "starve out" you would think they would show up don't you? That their expansion would be slower, right? If nothing else please look at that savegame I posted that has the long EoT's. It's Deity on Epic with RCS. I just passed the slowest growing AI with 14 cities in the classical era Ragnar has 12 because he's at war with Sejong who has 24. But there are 2 or 3 other contacted AI that have 28 cities, double what I have. You have 1st hand experience with my play, so why can't you trust me?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally the colonist and pioneer were the way the pop and buildings were done but that has a fatal flaw - it only works for human players not the ai.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Okay. 1st the AI is very adept at placing wooden towers and palisades (and later forts). They are using them to "stake out" new city sites. So that when they place a tribe or settler the new city may already have 1 or more cultured tiles that the new city can use.

Interesting. I don't consider use of forts much myself so I had not considered they might be doing this that effectively. I suppose in many cases this could help to avoid the additional pop loss. But only if they have preplaced forts wherever they're going to settle, which I doubt it would always be the case.

So they are not losing any 2nd pop that I have seen (not saying it does not happen, but it is rare if it does cause I've yet to see it).

You'd have to see it the round they plant the city so it would take a lot of monitoring. I know as a player using the great bath that it's tough to avoid even if you have the full 9 because you need a plot that provides better than 2 food to avoid it. All too easy to starve out as it is.

Then again when does the Great bath become available? I've not had it for so long I can't remember what tech even gives it. Nor have I seen an AI wilt because they do have it.

I've been building it before I settle out past my third city. That's how early it comes up. I THINK its masonry? maybe? Can't remember the exact tech but its early ancient. And again, let's not fixate too much on this being the only reason it can be an issue. I'm not sure I've thought of all the ways you can get a free population when founding the city and then there's also wonders that add an additional pop to all cities, often before they can feed that population as it is.

And as I keep saying entertainers and AI coding to Make the AI take one along is really not necessary at this time. And may never be necessary either.

It's one thing to say something and another to back up the claim with a reason.

You do realize that by the time you have Pioneers and Colonists that there is not much city placement usually left in most games except for those that have big, big maps and started with only a handful of AI as the game plays out now.

Depends on the type of game. For Old World starts this is not always true. I don't usually play with that but I've done it before and it can be interesting. It's good to know you wouldn't be too worried about the starting culture level at that stage of the game though. I was wondering if the tech based solution of getting cities to LATER start at higher culture levels would be a problem for your vision or not.

That is just it, what dilemmas? You say there was/is. Problem is I have not come across any up thru Classical era. At least give me the Game set up Options, Civ/leader, Map etc. used for that particular game so I can try to reproduce it. Iirc it was a Snail game with Rev On and must have had RCS as well.

I've explained in detail the few minor issues we're trying to sort out. I'm not trying to say they're huge, just trying to avoid them as minor as they are.
1) There's no strategic interaction with the player so it just frustrates to start the game with one tile without having a way to CHOOSE to expedite the expansion of your culture. This is an experiential issue and not a solid problem so much as its deeply annoying. Also easily fixed.

2) The immediate first round loss of any additional population the city may start with because it can't feed it.

That's really it. Outside of that I really like this whole concept.

And I have yet to have a new city "starve out". And I have not seen the AI have one either during regular game play. (No I have not checked out every AI in WB to see if they do have one happen.)

Unfortunately you'd need to know which AI's have obtained an ability to get their cities to found with additional population and then you'd need to see what happens to that additional population after the round they plant the city so it would take close monitoring to see the problem take place.

You COULD set up a test on that by GIVING the great bath to a particular AI then checking WB every round. Would be a little laborious but if you want to see what I'm talking about you could do it, best right when they want to really expand out there and you could always give them some settlers and defenders to go with them to help the process along. An autoplay could be easy enough to setup too I think but you'd still want to WB in the great bath for them to ensure you'll see the scenario.

What I have seen from an occasional look into the WB is that the AI is moving right along. And on Deity planting cities like wildfire. You know I'm an expansionist and on Deity the AI is leaving me in the dust picking up the crumbs. If they had cities "starve out" you would think they would show up don't you? That their expansion would be slower, right?

Nope... wouldn't make any difference. Starving out is not to say it destroys the city, just any additional bonus population it would be getting, which would be tremendously unfair to the AI if they were getting bonus population.

If nothing else please look at that savegame I posted that has the long EoT's. It's Deity on Epic with RCS. I just passed the slowest growing AI with 14 cities in the classical era Ragnar has 12 because he's at war with Sejong who has 24. But there are 2 or 3 other contacted AI that have 28 cities, double what I have. You have 1st hand experience with my play, so why can't you trust me?

It's not about trust. I totally get that the AI does fine without worrying about it but what I SEE is just a raw mathematical cause and effect issue that puts the player with another advantage over the AI. If we want the AI to stay competitive introducing new disadvantages that can be solved would be preferable to solve them wouldn't they?

You are giving my words far too much emotion my friend.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've explained in detail the few minor issues we're trying to sort out. I'm not trying to say they're huge, just trying to avoid them as minor as they are.
1) There's no strategic interaction with the player so it just frustrates to start the game with one tile without having a way to CHOOSE to expedite the expansion of your culture. This is an experiential issue and not a solid problem so much as its deeply annoying. Also easily fixed.

2) The immediate first round loss of any additional population the city may start with because it can't feed it.

That's really it. Outside of that I really like this whole concept.

T-brd this will only be an Option. Players will try it or not. They will try it because they want something different. So number 1 will not apply here. Nor will it need "fixed". And yes it is experiential And once used the strategic value will become clear. If it annoys them they will stop using the option, yes?!

2. is just conjecture over what might happen. You posture that you see mountains, I can't even see a molehill.

And if you like the concept why are you wanting to mold it to your vision? And why are we having these endless debates? Let's just do it and stop wasting each others time and efforts. How about it?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sorry man, I guess I just want to like the end result is all. But it's yours and I'm just being a pain in the ass to suggest how to overcome problems I personally feel the modification suffers from. You're right. I don't have to play with it. Even though minor tweaks would fix the problems keeping me from liking it, keeping me from being able to argue for its use.

After some review, I believe there IS an easier way. Make the culture level poor and use the OnGameOption tag on just that culture level. See if that works. If you need another culture level for the core, then just define another similar one and use the NotOnGameOption tag to specify the option.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Is this "OnGameOption tag" a bolean tag? Or what? Does it have to go in a schema file somewhere too?

Sorry but you are talking "Greek" to me.

Even though minor tweaks would fix the problems keeping me from liking it, keeping me from being able to argue for its use.

Sorry to see you have pre-judged it and found it wanting. I understand, you want your finger prints on it too. <shrug>

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

To anyone that can help:

Did this:
<Type>CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Description>
<bNotOnGameOption>1</bNotOnGameOption>

And this
<Type>CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Type>

<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Description>
<ReplacementID>CULTURELEVEL_ALT_POOR</ReplacementID>
<bOnGameOption>1</bOnGameOption>

Did not work.

Should I have removed the
<ReplacementID>CULTURELEVEL_ALT_POOR</ReplacementID>
first? And then it's later argument?

<CultureLevelInfo>
			<Type>CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Description>
			<bNotOnGameOption>1</bNotOnGameOption>
			<iCityDefenseModifier>0</iCityDefenseModifier>
			<SpeedThresholds>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EONS</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EPIC</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
			</SpeedThresholds>
			<iCityRadius>2</iCityRadius>
			<iMaxWorldWonders>1</iMaxWorldWonders>
			<iMaxTeamWonders>1</iMaxTeamWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWonders>4</iMaxNationalWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWondersOCC>4</iMaxNationalWondersOCC>
		</CultureLevelInfo>

then

<CultureLevelInfo>
			<Type>CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Type>
			<ReplacementID>CULTURELEVEL_ALT_POOR</ReplacementID>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Description>
			<bOnGameOption>1</bOnGameOption>
			<iCityDefenseModifier>0</iCityDefenseModifier>
			<SpeedThresholds>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>80</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EONS</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>70</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>50</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>30</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EPIC</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>20</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>10</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
			</SpeedThresholds>
			<iCityRadius>2</iCityRadius>
			<iMaxWorldWonders>1</iMaxWorldWonders>
			<iMaxTeamWonders>1</iMaxTeamWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWonders>4</iMaxNationalWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWondersOCC>4</iMaxNationalWondersOCC>
			<ReplacementCondition>
				<Has>
					<GOMType>GOM_OPTION</GOMType>
					<ID>GAMEOPTION_1_CITY_TILE_FOUNDING</ID>
				</Has>
			</ReplacementCondition>
		</CultureLevelInfo>

This Crashes during Loading at xml init (uncached)

???

3 files I'm working on for this below. Is there anymore I should look at?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is this "OnGameOption tag" a bolean tag? Or what? Does it have to go in a schema file somewhere too?

Sorry but you are talking "Greek" to me.

Actually, OnGameOption is not on CultureLevels either. Ok. Still got some work to do then.

Sorry to see you have pre-judged it and found it wanting. I understand, you want your finger prints on it too. <shrug>

Not 'pre' judged. Judge based on my playtest of it. I'm not as concerned about what happens later on in the game thanks to it so much as what happens right at the beginning of the game, which imo is the most fun part of any game because the interesting decisions are pure and obvious at that stage.

I honestly do not care one bit if it has anything to do with me but you certainly have expressed in your comment why you won't consider a thing I say. Thanks for that.

I'll try to finish the replacement mechanism activation on culture levels later tonight for you. Sorry if that puts too much of my fingerprint all over your precious brain child.

 

[Thunderbrd]

My last commit should enable Replacement entries on CultureLevelInfos.

It looks like you've done everything right as far as setting it up except:
1) It's probably not Poor but the None category that you'll need to replace if I'm not mistaken... the one that sets you at 1 tile when you start.

2) You can go ahead and remove the OnGameOption and NotOnGameOption tags... I was looking at the wrong info type when I said those were available here - they are not. Was far faster to finish the option replacement setup.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Options shows now and no CTD.

Does not work even with or without your suggestion about level None or Level Poor.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Are you changing anything about the replacement entry? What's the tag you adjust to make the 'none' category give no starting tiles?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have changed no "tags". I removed the "bOnGameOption tag"and "bNotOnGameOption" lines I asked about and got no answer over.

I should not have to add any Tag to None or Threshold value either, they should all be threshold>0< for None.

But as you can see in this file I did as you suggested. I put the threshold values I had originally used to get this to work from the Poor Level. In this file I could not leave Poor with Threshold>0< so I double what I have in the ALT_NONE.

This is the 15th combination of things I have tried.

What originally works is just putting 10, 20, 30 ,50, 70, 80 for the Threshold>x< for each respective GS in the POOR Level. It will do the same thing If I put these values in NONE. but then POOR can't be left with 0.

I also posted all the files I was working with in a previous post.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

What originally works is just putting 10, 20, 30 ,50, 70, 80 for the Threshold>x< for each respective GS in the POOR Level. It will do the same thing If I put these values in NONE. but then POOR can't be left with 0.

Ok, so what the difference is between the change that makes the modification happen and the original unmodified version is what the replacement entry is supposed to contain.

The replacement entry uses the 'new way' while the original uses the 'old way'. See if you can set it up like that and it should then work. If you have to write 2 replacement entries, one for None and one for Poor to get it to work properly, don't shy away from doing so.

Otherwise, if this doesn't help to clarify things, post me the file before and the file after the change is made if you were doing this NOT based on an option and I can see what needs to be done. It's possible the programming for the option switch didn't catch everything that needs to be caught but didn't leave an error in the process. But lets make sure the syntax in the xml is right before I start hunting down what might be wrong there.


Also... are you trying to say that the adjustment that makes this work takes place in the GameSpeedInfo.xml? If that's so then the replacement entries need to be there...

It sounds like it would help to explain fundamentally what is happening here:

When you create a replacement entry, you are setting up an entry that will replace the original entry of the same <Type> tag. The replacement entry is the one that uses the <ReplacementID> and <ReplacementCondition> tags. Every tag definition within the replacement entry will replace the tags defined on the original entry with the same <Type> but only when the condition that's specified is true (in this case, that an option is in use). Make sense?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ok, so what the difference is between the change that makes the modification happen and the original unmodified version is what the replacement entry is supposed to contain.

Understood and was done.

The replacement entry uses the 'new way' while the original uses the 'old way'. See if you can set it up like that and it should then work. If you have to write 2 replacement entries, one for None and one for Poor to get it to work properly, don't shy away from doing so.

Did it this way too no worky.

Otherwise, if this doesn't help to clarify things, post me the file before and the file after the change is made if you were doing this NOT based on an option and I can see what needs to be done. It's possible the programming for the option switch didn't catch everything that needs to be caught but didn't leave an error in the process. But lets make sure the syntax in the xml is right before I start hunting down what might be wrong there.

In a previous post you said it all looked right.

The File CIV4CultureLevelInfo.xml in original form has this for CultureLevel_NONE and POOR.

<CultureLevelInfo>
			<Type>CULTURELEVEL_NONE</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_NONE</Description>
			<iCityDefenseModifier>0</iCityDefenseModifier>
			<SpeedThresholds>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EONS</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EPIC</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
			</SpeedThresholds>
			<iCityRadius>2</iCityRadius>
			<iMaxWorldWonders>1</iMaxWorldWonders>
			<iMaxTeamWonders>1</iMaxTeamWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWonders>2</iMaxNationalWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWondersOCC>2</iMaxNationalWondersOCC>
		</CultureLevelInfo>
		<CultureLevelInfo>
			<Type>CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Description>
			<iCityDefenseModifier>0</iCityDefenseModifier>
			<SpeedThresholds>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EONS</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EPIC</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>0</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
			</SpeedThresholds>
			<iCityRadius>2</iCityRadius>
			<iMaxWorldWonders>1</iMaxWorldWonders>
			<iMaxTeamWonders>1</iMaxTeamWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWonders>4</iMaxNationalWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWondersOCC>4</iMaxNationalWondersOCC>
		</CultureLevelInfo>

All I originally did was change the Threhold values for POOR to 10,20,30,50,70,80, ie.

<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Description>
			<iCityDefenseModifier>0</iCityDefenseModifier>
			<SpeedThresholds>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>80</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EONS</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>70</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>50</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>30</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EPIC</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>20</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>10</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
			</SpeedThresholds>

Also... are you trying to say that the adjustment that makes this work takes place in the GameSpeedInfo.xml? If that's so then the replacement entries need to be there...

No.

It sounds like it would help to explain fundamentally what is happening here:

When you create a replacement entry, you are setting up an entry that will replace the original entry of the same <Type> tag. The replacement entry is the one that uses the <ReplacementID> and <ReplacementCondition> tags. Every tag definition within the replacement entry will replace the tags defined on the original entry with the same <Type> but only when the condition that's specified is true (in this case, that an option is in use). Make sense?

With the original file intact (as it was Before I changed those Threshold values in POOR) I added as instructed this to the end of the file:

<CultureLevelInfo>
			<Type>CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Type>
			<ReplacementID>CULTURELEVEL_ALT_POOR</ReplacementID>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_POOR</Description>
			<iCityDefenseModifier>0</iCityDefenseModifier>
			<SpeedThresholds>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>80</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EONS</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>70</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>50</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>30</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EPIC</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>20</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>10</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
			</SpeedThresholds>
			<iCityRadius>2</iCityRadius>
			<iMaxWorldWonders>1</iMaxWorldWonders>
			<iMaxTeamWonders>1</iMaxTeamWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWonders>4</iMaxNationalWonders>
			<iMaxNationalWondersOCC>4</iMaxNationalWondersOCC>
			<ReplacementCondition>
				<Has>
					<GOMType>GOM_OPTION</GOMType>
					<ID>GAMEOPTION_1_CITY_TILE_FOUNDING</ID>
				</Has>
			</ReplacementCondition>
		</CultureLevelInfo>

It did not work.

Next I added a new section for <Type>CULTURELEVEL_NONE</Type> with the same format Before the Above segment and then plugged in the values used in the Above POOR.

After that I doubled the Values in the Above segment so there would be no Threshold >0< in POOR after coming from NONE, with the same set up as Above.

Is this too hard to follow? Am I really that obtuse when I post? I don't know.

I know that because I type badly I sometimes leave thoughts out, but I generally review what I post for coherency and spelling. Wife says I'm longwinded when I give details and instructions. Is that what is happening here?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is this too hard to follow? Am I really that obtuse when I post?

I know that because I type badly I sometimes leave thoughts out, but I generally review what I post for coherency and spelling. Wife says I'm longwinded when I give details and instructions.

I'm a little strange with communicating this stuff myself... more info and details is better than less for me. The problem when beginning to communicate regarding programming between two amateurs is that terminology is not the same on both ends usually. So when I say something like 'entry' I'm not sure you are getting what I mean exactly. And sometimes, equally, you will refer to something in a way that I just really don't know what you're talking about either. Thankfully, in my conversations with AIAndy and Koshling, I came to understand this to be normal and something that you overcome after a while when you get used to working with a particular person and their terminology.

So, this is the ONLY tag that differs when you set this up as non-optional?

			<SpeedThresholds>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>80</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EONS</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>70</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>50</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>30</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EPIC</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>20</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
				<SpeedThreshold>
					<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</GameSpeedType>
					<iThreshold>10</iThreshold>
				</SpeedThreshold>
			</SpeedThresholds>

What does it NORMALLY say for the POOR culture level?

I'm also curious what this tag does since this isn't something I've researched in the code:

			<iCityRadius>2</iCityRadius>

Also, does the original way things go have a NONE culture at all? Or does it START at poor?

 

[JosEPh_II]

T-brd the 1st {code} section above Is the original CIV4CultureLevelInfo.xml for the 1st 2 levels. Please look at it.

The File CIV4CultureLevelInfo.xml in original form has this for CultureLevel_NONE and POOR.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

T-brd the 1st {code} section above Is the original CIV4CultureLevelInfo.xml for the 1st 2 levels. Please look at it.


JosEPh

Ah... I get it.

Try setting up a replacement 'none' culture setting and change the cityradius tag to 0 or possibly 1. At the same time, you will need the replacement poor culture with the thresholds set as you have them in the new method.

See what happens.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Okay.

But question, since I did not change that city radius tag to start with and got the 1 city tile effect only from POOR's thresholds having a value greater than 0,...Why should I change it now? Sorry but that just doesn't click for me. I'll try it though.

I also did put the same Replacement and ReplacementConditon tags in an ALT_NONE With the threshold values I had in my POOR that gives this effect of 1 city tile. It did not work With the Game Option turned ON or OFF. That too is in the same post ABOVE.

If I take the Original CultureLevel_NONE and plug in my 10 thru 80 Threshold values, then with the Option turned OFF the game starts with 1 city tile. With it turned ON the city starts with 9 tiles. It is not picking up the ALT_NONE or ALT_POOR for the Option to work at all.

As I stated I have tried over 15 combinations. I even tried with Fixed Borders On and Off to see if that would change any thing. Nope No affects at all.


JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Okay.

But question, since I did not change that city radius tag to start with and got the 1 city tile effect only from POOR's thresholds having a value >0,...Why should I change it now? Sorry but that just doesn't click for me. I'll try it though.

Well... it's based on a theory I have running that I think you answered to later here in this post. Without trying to explain, I just said to try it because the explanation could confuse too much. The question you ask is a good one though and very appropriate to the instruction.

I also did put the same Replacement and ReplacementConditon tags in an ALT_NONE With the threshold values I had in my POOR that gives this effect of 1 city tile. It did not work With the Game Option turned ON or OFF. That too is in the same post ABOVE.

If I take the Original CultureLevel_NONE and plug in my 10 thru 80 Threshold values, then with the Option turned OFF the game starts with 1 city tile.

I thought you put the threshold values on poor... Was there even a NONE culture level to begin with before you modded the culture levels at all? Or was poor the first level given definition?

OK, so reverse what you did in that last paragraph I just quoted you on. Put the thresholds in the replacement NONE and leave NONE for the core alone. I'm not sure what this will mean you need for the POOR level but I'm thinking you literally need no culture level to be what the player starts with to get the 1 tile effect. Either that or it's controlled by the iCityRadius tag and what happens is if the first 'no culture level' status the player gets into since they haven't qualified to have a culture level with enough culture yet, that's when they end up having just the city tile.

 

[JosEPh_II]

T-brd,
Please, I pointed out that both the 1st culture level NONE and POOR Originally had Threshold values of 0 (zero) for all GS.

This is why when I 1st talked about adjusting Culture levels, a month or so ago, that I said we have 2 starting levels with no values, that they were Redundant. So when I started looking into that file I decided to add very low levels to Poor so it was not just an empty set. Then came the surprise and delight that a founded city would only start with 1 tile Until those low Threshold levels I put in Poor were reached. Are you following me still?

I have tried your every suggestion up till this afternoon. Your last commit enabled the Option to show up. But every things else is not working with the Option. I propose that something was left out if these Replacement and ReplacementConditions worked for Other Options. And we know they do for the Option Upscaled Costs where in the CIV4GameSpeedinfo.xml there was an ALT Set made for that Option (Upscaled) to work.

Does there need to be somethng similar put in there for CultureLevelInfo.xml with an alt set to work?

JosEPh