C2C Pedia

[Thunderbrd]

The code works but i think it belongs outside if (!bCivilopediaText). The other much bigger problem with that Tag is that there is no cache write and read code.

Edit:
I fixed this Tag but i can't put the fix into the svn today.

lol... that was my problem with the unlimited exemption tag... yeah that can make for problems. And I THOUGHT I'd looked to make sure that it wasn't within !bCivilopediaText brackets! It must be a long ways up the line there and perhaps is capturing a lot of other tags it shouldn't be...

 

[olduser]

It's just odd no one noticed that this Tag was never working. But considering the overall size of this mod it's not that odd anymore.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I believe its been reported and the bug had not been previously found.

 

[olduser]

The expression system being used by C2C means that pedia can't get at some important information. For example the second vicinity bonus requirements for buildings is defined in these expressions. There is no way for the pedia to find and display them in the same way it does for the one defined in the XML tag for prerequisite vicinity bonus.

Ah... yeah that's been an issue hasn't it...

This is also a issue for the AI becuase it can't see those additional vicinity bonus requirements. I say the current expression system should not be used for such things.

To fix this i have planned to add new Tags for Buildings and Units.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@TB AIAndy has already done some shortening of the help hover so that it is full in the pedia but short on the main screen. He did it for the buildings units can build. He did something like after 3 just put ... rather than the rest. If you could extend this idea to buildings and technologies that would be great. I can never tell how long writing is going to take when choosing a free tech.

To fix this i have planned to add new Tags for Buildings and Units.

I think we already have and condition tags for bonuses required but not or.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@TB AIAndy has already done some shortening of the help hover so that it is full in the pedia but short on the main screen. He did it for the buildings units can build. He did something like after 3 just put ... rather than the rest. If you could extend this idea to buildings and technologies that would be great. I can never tell how long writing is going to take when choosing a free tech.

Please just let me know which exact tags are being problematic in this manner and I'd be happy to.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There are three areas that could be shortened in the technology hover over

- adjustments to building returns
- units that can be trained
- buildings that can be built​

I'll have to find a building example.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There are three areas that could be shortened in the technology hover over

- adjustments to building returns
- units that can be trained
- buildings that can be built​

I'll have to find a building example.

The tech hover has some room for hotkey pages still. Since I find it very important to be able to see from the hover in the tech tree the units unlocked and possibly as important at times to see the buildings, those could be hotkeyed onto their own pages. The adjustments to building returns... that could at least be comma separated rather than hard line returns between the two which would cut down on it some. I've done a lot of work in other areas on these hovers but haven't touched the techs yet. I've been meaning to do a little work on these with each release version because they can be an overwhelming effort to fix them all.

So I'll make techs the next place to focus during the next release. Don't worry about hunting down the tags yet... Since I haven't previously tried to address tech hovers I can simply make a thorough project of it. Should be easier than the units by far (which I think still have some things that need to be addressed... urgh!)

 

[olduser]

There are three areas that could be shortened in the technology hover over

- adjustments to building returns
- units that can be trained
- buildings that can be built​

I'll have to find a building example.

Is it possible to make those hovers wider.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Is it possible to make those hovers wider.

Only if you do them yourself rather than use the graphics engine - I think.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, we'd love to and if we were using the non-Bug/bull whatever bull**** we use for python structure we'd be able to but something in all that negates any attempts to use the values intended for allowing you to set the width of the hover. So a very good py programmer would have to dig deep to figure out where that can be manipulated here.

 

[Northstar1989]

I was requested to repost his here earlier:


I'd like to see more information listed in the Civilopedia about how to build the religious Great Wonders.

As I understand it, most of these (such as Hammaurabi Stele of Laws) require the relevant religion (such as Mesopotamism) to be your state religion, even if you're running a non-oppressive religious civic such as Folklore or Prophets.

Is it possible the Civilopedia for these wonders (at least the ones available early on in the game- until the player is likely to have gotten the hang of it) could explain something about this requirement? I know it confused me for a long time...


Also, the various monasteries and temples could use a much better explanation of what the requirements are to build them. I can recall being confused on more than a few occasions by my inability to build many of the monasteries until I discovered Meditation, for instance, despite the Cviliopedia and tech tree tooltips indicating certain monasteries could be built much earlier...


Regards,
Northstar

 

[Thunderbrd]

I recall that really confusing me too but I'd have to really research which tags mean what and how they're being expressed to sort it out... there IS actually a difference in the way it's expressed if I recall correctly. Some buildings require A state religion while others require THIS religion to be a state religion and they express nearly identically but if I recall there was a way to tell the difference in some subtle factor... can't remember how though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is not much space to play around with on the pedia screen but I am looking at a better display.

The Sevopedia is explicit in that monasteries require the Meditation tech. It is the first thing in the Requires field. Perhaps you could post a picture showing what you mean.

What is confusing are the various options
- requires any state religion
- requires a specified religion in the city
- requires a specified religion as your state religion

The first two can be required at the same time.

 

[Northstar1989]

There is not much space to play around with on the pedia screen but I am looking at a better display.

The Sevopedia is explicit in that monasteries require the Meditation tech. It is the first thing in the Requires field. Perhaps you could post a picture showing what you mean.

What is confusing are the various options
- requires any state religion
- requires a specified religion in the city
- requires a specified religion as your state religion

The first two can be required at the same time.

I'll have to check on the Monasteries, if I get around to it. Maybe I accidentally overstated that, though I thought there were problems with the requirements listing of some of the newer monasteries (the ones from the original game list fine).

But several of the temple-type buildings definitely say they can be built sooner than they actually can on the tech tree- and some of them are bugged in the Civilopedia as well. The King Gesar Song for Tengriism, for instance (the Civilopedia would seem to indicate it could be built from the same tech level as the Eje Song- but it definitely can't...)


I'll have to load up C2C to get some more specific details on many of these... but I can't do that right now- maybe later when I have the time.


The biggest issue by far was the the religious World Wonders seem to indicate in the Civilopedia only that a state religion is needed, and that the relevant religion need be present in that city- but act like the relevant religion has to be THE state religion (a new tag I don't remember ever seeing in the original game- it probably went unused if it was there) in order to build them...


Regards,
Northstar

 

[olduser]

The expression system being used by C2C means that pedia can't get at some important information. For example the second vicinity bonus requirements for buildings is defined in these expressions. There is no way for the pedia to find and display them in the same way it does for the one defined in the XML tag for prerequisite vicinity bonus.

I'am planning the new Tags for Buildings and Units and i also want to rework the old Or tags.

All Bonus requirements Buildings and Units will be in these tags.

• PrereqAndBonuses
• PrereqOrBonuses
• PrereqAndVicinityBonuses
• PrereqOrVicinityBonuses

PrereqAndBonuses and PrereqAndVicinityBonuses are new list tags and replace the following old tags.

• BuildingInfo
  • BonusType
  • VicinityBonusType
• UnitInfo
  • Bonus
  • VicinityBonus

But now i have a question about the bonuses in the ConstructCondition and TrainCondition tags. They are normal bonuses without vicinity required but you wrote about vicinity bonus requirements did i miss something here?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have never used either. All I am going on is what I have gathered from reading what others have written. I may have been confusing the terrain requirement which by definition is vicinity.

BTW Is the terrain requirement for buildings exposed to Python? It is not shown in the pedia that I can see, except in the help text.

 

[olduser]

Ok i take a closer look before i convert them to the new tags.

The building tags isPrereqAndTerrain and isPrereqOrTerrain are exposed to Python.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Some changes and additions I am thinking of making to the Concepts

Terrain

Caveman2Cosmos adds many Base Terrain types, Terrain Features and Bonuses to the game. Some can be seen in the pedia but are not yet in game, all the off Earth terrain types, features and bonuses fall into this category.

New (Earth) Base Terrain types are:- Barren, Dunes, Lush, Marsh, Muddy, Permafrost(?), Rocky, Scrub and Salt Flats. Plus the new water terrains (see Terrain - Water)

New (Earth) Terrain Features are:- Ancient Forest, Burnt Forest(not used yet), Cactus, Caves, Coral (on coast), Crater, Kelp (on coast), Mangrove, New Forest(see Early Terriforming?), Outcrop, Peat Bog, Rainwater Basin, Reef(on coast), Savanna, Sea Grass (on coast), Tar Pit, Tornado(event), Very Tall Grass, Active and Dormant Volcanoes (have events associated with them).

Bonuses are split into those found on the map, those made by buildings and the special C2C Cultural bonus​

See also:- Natural Wonders, Terrain - Water, Terrain Damage

Natural Wonders

mod by Platyping adjusted for C2C play

Natural Wonders include marvels that truly display the grand beauty of the natural world.

Being first to discover a Natural Wonder provides benefits to the nation discovering it. (V36 and before that was money. In V37 it is intended to have a research and cultural benefit for discovery with a bigger benefit if you are the first.)

Building a city with a Natural Wonder inside its work radius will allow that city to build a building that provides increasing benefits with time.​

Terrain - Water

C2C adds a number of water base terrains to the game. These terrains have varying effects on game play, principly Navigation, animal spawn and movement, working of the tiles and combat. The way the base terrain is named provides clues to their usage in game.

Coast, Sea and Ocean terrains indicate limits to Navigation. Coast means insight of land; Sea means insight of land if your boat has a mast; Ocean means can't sea any land. Technological advancement and improved ships are needed to enter the more dangerous waters.

Polar and Tropical are about climate. Temperate is the assumed climate if none is specified. This is used to define where water creatures spawn and control the movement of wild animals (birds as sea critters).

Deep indicates that the water is one level deeper that usual.??? Deep Coast is as deep as Sea for example. This is used for deciding what terrain features and improvements can be put on a plot. It also affects combat. Note: need climate on these.

Continental Shelf(?) indicates that the water is as shallow as normal coastal waters even when they are too far from shore to be safely navigated. Note: need climate on these.

Lake Shore and Lakes are fresh water lakes. These have been introduces for two reasons 1) to stop sea critters spawning in lakes where you can't remove them and 2) to allow for new buildings.

Any suggestions? I notice that there is not an entry for Terrain Damage if someone would like to suggest some text...

 

[Thunderbrd]

Deep indicates that the water is one level deeper that usual.??? Deep Coast is as deep as Sea for example. This is used for deciding what terrain features and improvements can be put on a plot. It also affects combat. Note: need climate on these.

To clear this up, Coasts are almost always a part of the continental shelf. There are 3 depth layers, Continental Shelf, Deep and Trench. Of course, islands like Hawaii go straight to Deep waters right away therefore we have Deep Coasts (and if Seas are 2 spcs out for navigation then we need Deep Sea tiles as well. We probably would not need Continental Shelf tiles for Ocean waters as I can't see maps having Continental shelves extending 3 spaces away from land.