C2C - UEM - Ultimate-Earth-Map 100% MOD and SVN update compatible by Pit2015

[Toffer90]

Sweden and Finland thinking more about to join NATO true the behavior of russia, so russia is getting exactly that what they dont want by there moves

More correct to say that the US is getting what they want with their moves if those two indeed join NATO.

Are your family from russia toffer?

Not that I know of, I have some family from Sweden on my fathers side whom I've never met and some from the US and Canada on my mothers side whom I have met. My great grandmother on my mothers side who is still alive and kicking 100+ years was born to very Norwegian parents before the 2'nd world war. I don't know much about older family history than that (100+ years or so).

so what will you do if russia annex norway? NATO gave you many years of peace and stability in your life, some guys have to go and life in russia, lets see how fast they want to come back.

A ridiculous postulation, Sweden and Finland did just fine not being in NATO even during the Soviet era, Russia today is a far lesser threat than the soviet union ever was to Europeans. Norway and Russia has had pretty good relations and even some military cooperation since they liberated northern Norway from German occupation.
https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/utenrikssaker/sikkerhetspolitikk/russland/id451591/

I'm currently very concerned for European security, I'm concerned that NATO is putting it at risk by its aggressive behavior. Why do we need to have a confrontational strategy towards Russia all the time, it's like we are eager for military conflicts.

Look into Nawalny...

Yes, the western darling, a right wing extremist who dreams of a greater Russia, and is opposed to the concept of political parties.

Russia want to reestablish the soviet union.

What do you base this on, and what do you mean by it?

And if you want to blame USA for warmongering look into this list of russian wars:

A lot of these are small conflicts, not proper wars per say, and wars pre second world war is of absolutely no interest when looking at modern warmongering.
I see you list peace troops sent to the Nagoro-Karabach (probably spelled wrong) region between Armenia and Azerbaijan to dissuade any cease fire breaking between the two, this was pretty much Russia allowing the western friendly Azerbaijan to annex land from Armenia which is a Russian ally and friend. Oh very undiplomatic of Russia indeed.
Russia is demanding that Kiev starts on a path of diplomacy to end the civil war, while the west is encouraging Kiev to be uncompromising and hard line against any form of diplomacy. Yes very undiplomatic of Russia indeed.
Russia was the main peace broker between the US and Taliban, and without Russia the US would probably still be fighting a pointless war in Afghanistan, yes, very undiplomatic of Russia.
Ah yes, the 1992–1997 Tajikistani Civil War, Russia was here on the same side as Switzerland and Denmark in that war... A prime example of Russian Aggression if ever I saw one.
Then there's the Chechen conflict basically a civil war within Russia so them participating in it wasn't really optional, and doesn't make em much more warmongering than Kiev has been for the last 8 years.
Then there's Syria, an long time Russian ally (pre civil war), they are there on the invitation of the government, same with their mercenaries in Congo btw, fighting to protect the secular state against collapse and religious extremism. Quite similar to the Soviet participation in the Afghan civil war really.
That list serves more to blur perception rather than to clarify.

 

[Pit2015]

Russia denying and crushing every opposition internal, so no western darling, its not wanted by about 80% of russians also but they cant do anything about it, its called suppression of everything and if you close your eyes about that because you want to stay in your beliefs at all cost then you also dont need to try to save nature and earth. As said its putins dream to reestablish the soviet union like stalin, thats no secret, search for putin documentaries. "Russia today is a far lesser threat than the soviet union ever was to Europeans" Well you missing some background, russia has a lot of tanks and is and will be the largest threat to europe if they dont change there dictatorship and behavior, they can damage planet earth with there nuclear threat and they try to get there fingers into a lot of conflicts and one man at the button is never to good for earth, you really think NATO will ever attack russia? Well russia attacked others and they may do it again, its a historical fact.

"I'm currently very concerned for European security, I'm concerned that NATO is putting it at risk by its aggressive behavior. Why do we need to have a confrontational strategy towards Russia all the time, it's like we are eager for military conflicts."

Well, russia annexed crimea and is killing ppl in ukraine civil war and started the civil war and is supporting the civil war, they dont need to do that. Maybe only because they dont like that NATO gets stronger and stronger and no one wants to join russia. If they did not annex crimea they already may be part of NATO they got closer but got away again. I agree better russia into the NATO but the problem is they dont want to life like the free countrys and they do nothing about it, some ppl want to keep there might and earn more cash in russia. Also they support a lot anti west countries, so they can sell more weapons to the other side, big business on both sides.

"Russia is demanding that Kiev starts on a path of diplomacy to end the civil war, while the west is encouraging Kiev to be uncompromising and hard line against any form of diplomacy."

No, kiev dont wants a war, russia is supporting the civil war and powering it up, they and the west tryed a lot diplomatically and still doing so, and the west also wants a diplomatic solution, i dont know where you got this **** from, but dont believe such a crap. Russias puppet was kicked out by the ukraine ppl, russia dont liked it, so they try to get there puppet back or more. If ukraine wants to join NATO let them, its there own decision not one by russia. But NATO will not take ukraine in because it is in state of conflict currently.

And that maybe is exactly what putin wants, keep ukraine in conflict as long as possible so they cant join NATO, hmm interesting...
Ok you will not change you opinion on facts so you are the best russia gamer.

I see Toffer games russia in next large UEM multiplayer.

 

[Toffer90]

And that maybe is exactly what putin wants, keep ukraine in conflict as long as possible so they cant join NATO, hmm interesting...

Interesting to now see you repeat what I said in this thread back in the start of December, back when I was arguing for why an unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine was an absurd idea, still is imo an absurd idea.
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https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ible-by-pit2015.552901/page-130#post-16192123
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Another interesting perspective is that NATO back in 2008-2014 would never have unanimously agreed to actually offer Ukraine the article 5 war guarantee as long as Ukraine was so corrupt as it was, Ukraine isn't less corrupt now, and the civil war is just yet another reasons for some NATO countries to veto their inclusion.

 

[tmv]

I think it is a bit problematic to accuse the West of violating agreements when Russia has no problems breaking formal treaties like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances or the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords . Does anyone think that Russia would have "liberated" Crimea if the Ukraine had still nuclear weapons?

But of course, the real trick is to promise to respect the borders of Ukraine, get them to give up their nukes, and then turn around and invade them. And Russia has invaded Ukraine, both Crimea and the so-called People's Republics in Eastern Ukraine. Not to mention that it is a bit rich when Russia of all nations champions the cause of parts of a country breaking free from it (Chechnya, anyone?).

It seems Russia would have no problems invading Ukraine again as long as they denied doing that. There are certainly enough people who would say the Sun "rises" in the West if the Kremlin had said it (I know about Copernicus, thank you).

To elaborate: Crimea breaks off Ukraine after a vote in the regional parliament, which had absolutely no mandate making that kind of decision. Then Russia goes in with their own military to supposedly "protect the integrity" of an upcoming popular vote, which again no one had any business conducting. In this vote the only two options are "Join Russia" and "Stay independent", which means anyone supporting the legal status quo had no recourse. Since the entire act was a clear violation of the Ukrainian constitution it was not legal, and since there was no justified decision for breaking off Ukraine it was not legitimate, either.

Then there are people who say that Crimea had always been Russian, or at least since the 1780s, until Crushchev (a Ukrainian) gave Crimea to Ukraine. That is certainly true, at least the latter point. The former is invalidated by the very fact that Ukraine was Russian as well at this point, because Russia before 1917 meant something different from Russia today. The Russian Empire was the predecessor of the entire Soviet Union (plus Poland, Finland and originally the Baltic states as well), so saying this about Crimea has no point about it not being Ukrainian. The latter point is invalidated by the simple fact that Russia agreed to the Budapest Memorandum of its own accord.

 

[Pit2015]

NEW: The life of putin, you can turn subtitles on:

How this 26 Year Old is Reverse Engineering UFOs:

Too see and to think about:

Hopefully never a chernobyl and fukushima again.

 

[Pit2015]

Strategic News Today:

(Stuff for a agent thriller movie)

UAP News Today:

Why Russia wants to restore the Soviet borders:

 

[Maltazard]

I can say without a worry that as a european and NATO citizen, I could care less if Russia invades Ukraine. It's their problem, they've never been on the radar as a friend or ally for us any more than Russia itself has. Way less, in fact. We have had to completely jeopardize our relationship with Russia on behalf of the US expansionistic drive, disguised as voluntary NATO memberships (let's not forget Ukraine had a convenient colored revolution sponsored by the US before Russia invaded Crimea and Donbass). It's for that same reason of preserving NATO that we've had to put up with Erdogan blackmailing us for billions of € while still allowing a sizeable portion of refugees to pass through Tyrkey (as a safe country, Turkey MUST offer shelter to all refugees who come there by international law, we do the same in Italy and no one pays us anything for it, it's nothing special. Because of NATO though, we must put up with this tyrant's nonsense).
Nord Stream gas duct is vital to our industry and our quality of life, gas and electricy prices are seeing as much as 400% price increases due to this stupid Ukraine affair which, again, we could care less about: first of all it was provoked, secondly people and countries are at war all over the world, it happens. Ukraine should've joined NATO when they broke off the Soviet Union or shortly after, if they were actually concerned with Russia taking over, like the baltic republics and the rest of eastern europe did. Now, it's too late, this is all staged to put a definitive wedge between EU (read Germany) and Russia relationships, hinder both the EU and Russian economies (and replace Russian gas with Arab monarchies gas, so that the world's main terrorism sponsors can make some more billions), put down thousands more US soldiers in europe "for our safety", and push forward the US second imperialistic wave to bring us to a super-bloc of conflitc with expanded NATO on one side, and Russia and China to the other. Good for them, terrible for us.
Were this to happen, it will actually pose a chance to destroy the world, and most certainly, to destroy europe once again. We've had two World Wars of our own doing and learned the lesson, now we don't need the US pushing us into a third one. If only Germany could at last grow a spine and say NO to the US for once. If only. So much has already been tolerated in the recent past, from the manufactured crises in Lybia and Syria to now the ones in Belarus and this. We've always paid for these crises first hand while the US gets to bomb stuff, sell weapons, send contractors and further expand their economic and military interests in the area... enough.
Europeans don't want a war with Russia. We want to import their cheap gas and sell our stuff in their valuable exports market and wealthy tourists.

 

[Pit2015]

ARTE hits again, HISTORY prince Eugene and the ottoman empire, german you can turn subtitels on:

 

[tmv]

Ukraine had a convenient colored revolution sponsored by the US

[Source?]

first of all it was provoked

[Source?]

push forward the US second imperialistic wave to bring us to a super-bloc of conflitc with expanded NATO on one side, and Russia and China to the other

[Source?]

 

[Maltazard]

I have a really hard time taking seriously anyone who asks for "sources" on this kind of stuff. For the record, there's plenty, none that you'd accept as valid of course. Personally, I've been following a geopolitical news outlet for years now, and their analysis is usually accurate enough. However, you're not going to have CNN announcing the CIA black ops on Channel 6 I'm afraid - and if it did, it would be propaganda and misleading. You have to evaluate facts and events with your own brain, and try to figure out what's going on in the world.
Currently, the US are pushing hard against China (mostly rightfully) and Russia (pointless endeavour), in the eastern europe theather and the south chinese sea one. Do you really need a "source" for this? Notice how the recent Khazakhstan riots were rapidly quelled and no one made too much of a fuss about it despite hundreds of deads: that's because those were an internal issue, no foreing sponsors. The ukrainian stuff on the other hand is constantly on the news for weeks now, matter of fact the daily news are babbling about it right now while I write this post, it's a clear sign to everyone who wants to listen that there's interest.
Then again it's quite funny that someone so critical of mainstream news when it comes to COVID would ask for "sources" on geopolitical affairs. If you really need one: my brain.

 

[tmv]

I think that I have always given sources when I say something that is not evident to everyone, and I certainly don't assume it's evident if it is questioned. I have also given sources for why I think that Russia is completely in the wrong here, which you have not done in return.

Besides, being critical is perfectly fine with me, as long as we are critical with respect to both sides. Selective criticism is not better than no criticism at all.

I have already said a few things about the Budapest Memorandum and the Helsinki Accords, both of which were violated by Russia. There is also the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Charter which is pretty much the treaty that ended the Cold War - needless to say, Russia (and its allies) have violated this as well. On the other hand, can you give me an example where the West has acted against either the Helsinki Accords or the Paris Charter? These are international treaties that were agreed on by all sides. Then there is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights which is also not really adhered to by Russia or (of course) the PRC. When one side constantly violates formal treaties, we should not see the burden of proof on the other side for their actions.

 

[Maltazard]

I'm not a fan of Russia, or for the record, of their internal policies, or the PRC. In fact if anything I believe the US should be way harder on China. Then again we have anti-LGBT zones in Poland, a tyrant in Hungary, Erdogan is in NATO as a major player allowed to bully Greece and play terrorist in Lybia, the US and UK are responsible for invading Iraq on false accusations in 2003, etcetera Banghazi etcetera, so it's not like we can preach too much about human rights. Let's not forget Afghanistan occupation for 20 years while being best buddies with Saudi Arabia and selling them weapons, a country that has de facto legalized slavery and is now bombing its neighbor basically for fun. Both sides kinda sucks, main difference is on the west we're sold a different tale about why things are done.
Currently, what is going on is a power struggle based on who gets to use Ukraine as a military base (and whoever does it is an imperialistic "pig"). No one gains from it other than either Russia or the US, and Europe has to put up with the humanitarian and economic consequences once again without any form of compensation.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Currently, what is going on is a power struggle based on who gets to use Ukraine as a military base (and whoever does it is an imperialistic "pig").

Interesting perspective, particularly now that we left Afghanistan. Our air range from there was always a big reason I felt we valued that incredibly difficult to capture location. Would make sense if, with Ukraine and longer reach, we don't need it like we used to, but if that's the unseen strat value in Ukraine then we will never let Russia just walk in without sparking off the need to take a true stand to hold it - one that could really be the start of a larger war. I do think China is watching what happens there to coordinate a move into Taiwan and we should also be wary of NK watching and acting up when we have 2 other fronts to be concerned with. We should have outright simply ended them as soon as they tested a nuke imo. They did a great job with gradual expansion into full armament, which I knew at that point they'd do if we didn't draw a hard line and stick to it no matter the cost, and we didn't. Won't be long before they have enough aimed at us to obliterate us and we will hardly realize they do.

In any game of chess there comes a time when the pieces start to fall over critical zones to capture. Ukraine may be it. This has been building for a while. Who cares who's 'fault' it is - we're all idiots for letting it go on like this and it could well end up in the very end that Ragnarok predicted (which is quite interesting in itself - to think of each of the 'gods' in that story as a nation...)

 

[Maltazard]

Well, essentially, yes. What you really do not want to see happen, is to see China and Russia, two historical enemies that couldn't even agree on how to run a communist hellscape, set aside their distrust for each other and join forces. They might both be "human rights violators" (which they absolutely are, although in different ways), but their nukes are gonna explode just as hard as "democratic" ones.
The display of manpower Russia is managing at the moment, on the other hand, is simply unmatchable for the EU NATO forces, and the US is not going to leave the Pacific theather over Ukraine either, despite fussing over it so much - China would make a move right away, and they don't have nowhere nearly as much to lose as Russia does from a conflict.
(In the middle of all of this is the big question mark which is Turkey, that wants to be a third pole for a unified muslim empire, just like Saudi Arabia, both taking advantage of the US in different ways without giving anything in exchange. If Russia was a friend, the middle east tyrants could be easily disarmed and deposed).
Personally I see China as such a great threat to the whole world however, given their extreme dystopian internal politics, their stranglehold on global manufacturing processes, their massive exports imbalance and their demographic ticking bomb, that I'd rather compromise with Russia and corner them, than risk Russia and China joining forces. Then you have Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, some african nations as well, that could easily re-constitute a much more harshly positioned, "anti imperialistic bloc" against the US and its allies and vassals (which is the only thing we europeans can consider ourselves considering how deeply the current policy goes against our own interests).
The only way to avoid all of this is to find a settlement with Russia, ideally arranging for them to join NATO after Putin's death. Such an outrageous idea was aired a few times before in the past, after all, and with a shift in policies, Russia could turn into a "harmless giant" just like Germany and Japan have. But no, generals want to play wargames in Ukraine, contractors want to be deployed, and weapons manufacturers want to sell their crap endlessly.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Russia could turn into a "harmless giant" just like Germany and Japan have.

I doubt this under its current organized crime leadership. They're currently one of the most powerful kleptocracies ever to manifest and if we treat them like they are harmless and they act like it, that would be the lie to unravel the world eventually. I don't disagree with Toffer on US policy being BS in that it self-assumes its own moral standing is unchallengeable which is the farthest from the truth - clearly we're the spear-tip military power of the effort to globalize for the global bankers - but Russia gave us an option to pick them over Europe and give them an alternative to working with China and ultimately we haven't accepted that offer, though the last election was exactly that question being answered here and its possible this delays enough to be asked of the people again. We'll see.

 

[Pit2015]

Ukraine dont wants back to soviet union, ukraine wants to turn and still democratic. By all talk a war will be bad for the ukraine ppl.

 

[Maltazard]

I doubt this under its current organized crime leadership.

Indeed, Putin has to go. And he will, eventually. When that happens, in any case, Russia will have a crisis, and if the US&EU are going to offer a friendly shoulder, friendlier than the PRC, it could finally bring an end to this antagonism. If, however, they're put in a corner, whoever comes after Putin is going to be even worse. Then what?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Indeed, Putin has to go. And he will, eventually.

The problem is he's not one to go quietly. He has a lot more life left in him and I think he's able to stay above a political solution. No doubt Russia will dramatically change under any other leadership, but between now and then, his stated objective is indeed the reunification of the USSR's original extent - "What is the Bear's is for the Bear to take." Imperialism on a roll usually doesn't stop at its initial goals once achieved either. He's not the only leader in the world seeming to be growing willing to play chicken with mutually assured destruction. There seems to be a growing belief that we may well be able to ignore all that and just fight wars as we always have, purely conventional, without the nukes being pulled off the shelves, as long as core borders aren't violated and the fighting is kept to frontal regions.

 

[Pit2015]

The problem is he's not one to go quietly. He has a lot more life left in him and I think he's able to stay above a political solution. No doubt Russia will dramatically change under any other leadership, but between now and then, his stated objective is indeed the reunification of the USSR's original extent - "What is the Bear's is for the Bear to take." Imperialism on a roll usually doesn't stop at its initial goals once achieved either. He's not the only leader in the world seeming to be growing willing to play chicken with mutually assured destruction. There seems to be a growing belief that we may well be able to ignore all that and just fight wars as we always have, purely conventional, without the nukes being pulled off the shelves, as long as core borders aren't violated and the fighting is kept to frontal regions.

Putin changed the law so he can stay president, he may do it again, president äähhh dictator for lifetime. Btw xi jinping did the same.
Like me on some games, but in the so called reality its a bit problematic, you know i will not press the button but on these guys you never know, there was only one good dictator in history.

 

[Pit2015]

Here is the arte documentary unblocked, i hope its working for you in other countrys. Timeline Germany new channel...

Prince Eugen and the Ottoman Empire - Part 1:

Gravitational lensin explained: