C2C - Wonder Civs

[Hydromancerx]

Yup. That's why there are going to be many Embassies with many different requirements. Some you just won't be lucky enough to build because of your available resources while others you just might be too slow to get it because another civ beat you too it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

As per request:

Hydro, not so sure about this embassy concept. I mean, in some ways I like it, but in others, shouldn't embassies be limited to the civilizations you know? But then that kinda goes against what it appears your trying to do, which is a nice concept for reworking UUs and UBs.

I would propose an alternative, which is to melt down the UU and UB system entirely. Remove the whole concept of it mattering what 'civilization' you pick. Make it just a name. Keep some open slots unfilled for UUs and UBs.

Then, take every UU and UB we have and really analize what it is about that civilization that gave that civilization access to this unique thing. Then make a very complex chain of requirements for each UU and UB that determines whether we may add one to our limited list of selected UUs and UBs.

These should not be easy to qualify for, most out of reach of any choices, relying more on some random factors in the map generation, such as: if capital city has two sources of iron and produces more than X starting experience, then that nation may select Praetyres to fill one of its UU slots.

This might be a bit more complicated from a programming angle, but I think it could be done.

Embassies, could then become a way to establish a link to another nearby civilization and adopt one of their selected UUs or UBs.

This way, we never have the same civilizations represented twice. Gone is our limited concept of playing those civilizations that developed on earth thanks to earths unique features, replaced by the completely unique civilizations that will rise on our new worlds.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@DH

We all have been thinking along these lines for some time but we never progress much beyond vague ideas, As has been said before you could link the UU and UB to such trait "buildings" making your initial choice of civ an aestetic one only.

Ok so how about like this, you have a series of buildings that require the "Native Language" wonder. These building would be given at "Cultural Identity" tech and you could only pick one since they cancel each other out. Once picked it will give you another building free in every city. This building gives all your cities a unique unit and is required to build your unique building. For example ...

"Native Language" -> "Cultural Identity (Sumerian)" (Free "Sumerian Embassy" in Every City) -> Unlocks "Vulture" (UU) and "Ziggurat" (UB)

EDIT: Perhaps it should just be a Wonder so only one civilization can exist on the planet. For instance no having 2 civs pick Sumerian as their cultural identity.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@DH


Ok so how about like this, you have a series of buildings that require the "Native Language" wonder. These building would be given at "Cultural Identity" tech and you could only pick one since they cancel each other out. Once picked it will give you another building free in every city. This building gives all your cities a unique unit and is required to build your unique building. For example ...

"Native Language" -> "Cultural Identity (Sumerian)" (Free "Sumerian Embassy" in Every City) -> Unlocks "Vulture" (UU) and "Ziggurat" (UB)

EDIT: Perhaps it should just be a Wonder so only one civilization can exist on the planet. For instance no having 2 civs pick Sumerian as their cultural identity.

Except that seems a bit sad, limiting us to Earth history. Why can't I have the Viking UU and the Inca UB?

How about, at 'Cultural Identity' you can build a number of trait buildings/national wonders based on where you are - coast, mountains. Plus you can build a 'cultural group' wonder. Then at "Sedentary Lifestyle" or similar you get your next trait and can refine your cultural group.

Alternatively, have wonders that provide access to each of the UUs since I don't see why it should not be possible to have 2 or 3 UUs in different eras. If you have one in one era you can't have one in the next but you can again in the following.

... just brainstorming.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well some key techs may be Language, Cultural Identity, Tribalism and Sedentary Lifestyle.

Personally I am not too big on the Unique buildings and think perhaps should be phased out into general buildings and/or Wonders. For instance the Ziggurat would make a nice wonder while say the Terrace or Mall sound like general buildings.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well some key techs may be Language, Cultural Identity, Tribalism and Sedentary Lifestyle.

Personally I am not too big on the Unique buildings and think perhaps should be phased out into general buildings and/or Wonders. For instance the Ziggurat would make a nice wonder while say the Terrace or Mall sound like general buildings.

Well Terrace does imply tropical location and we can limit buildings by latitude. Like you I see a number of UB and UU actually as a result of a wonder. In fact I would go a bit further. For example the Egyptian War Chariot. On Chariotry you can build a National Wonder - "Chariot Brigade" or whatever that allows you to build Egyptian War Chariots and opens a small tech tree (1-3 techs) which gives promotions and other buildings which speed up production or increases battle str.

Again still brainstorming.

Tech - Scything Blades (fantasy I know) requires Chariotry and "Chariot Brigade". Increases damage done when attacking.

Tech - "Suspended Floor" - suspension, quite common improvement in chariot warfare, the floor of the chariot actually hangs from side supports rather that sitting on the axle. Requires Chariotry and "Chariot Brigade". +1 movement or flanking promotion.

Building - "Chariot Arsinal" requires ?? increased speed of construction.

With melee units the Phalanx is just a bunch of spearmen who work together exceptionally well. So have a tech "Cadence" which requires "Dance hut" and "Musicians hut" to research with a building drill field requiring a barracks to build. This allows the building of the basic phalanx UU with again more "orphan" techs of that to give you the unique ones. Eg "Field of Mars" wonder to allow legions and so forth.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well Terrace does imply tropical location and we can limit buildings by latitude.

It was the Inca building. The Terrace is their mountain terrace farming. They live in high and cold elevations. This definitely was not a hot tropic type like say the tropical rice terraces of Asia. Location would not matter unless it was linked to peaks or hills.

With melee units the Phalanx is just a bunch of spearmen who work together exceptionally well. So have a tech "Cadence" which requires "Dance hut" and "Musicians hut" to research with a building drill field requiring a barracks to build. This allows the building of the basic phalanx UU with again more "orphan" techs of that to give you the unique ones. Eg "Field of Mars" wonder to allow legions and so forth.

On the subject of music and dance I still have to get around to adding music and dance related techs and buildings such as Folk Music (tech), Ballet Company (building), Kabuki Theater (building), etc.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

... They live in high and cold elevations...

Which can only exist in the or near tropics. Elsewhere they are covered in snow.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, so this is now sounding much better. No reason for us to be limited to earth civilizations... let those be something a mix and match system based on the civ's environment can come up with.

Still, its worth making ways for us to 'link' our culture to our trade neighbors, giving us some limited degree of access to what they have.

In such a method, you'd have U's (both) as Primary - accessed through means mentioned so far in the last posts here. Then you'd have sub-Us (both) - accessed as a result of the blend of your civ's cultural traits and your neighbor civs' cultural traits.

You want a game that will never play the same way twice? There you go!

And I have to say, Hydro, some of your concepts are really some ingenious breakthroughs as to how these things can be accomplished without needing to mess much with the core programming - mostly xml and building traits... I love it!

 

[Hydromancerx]

And I have to say, Hydro, some of your concepts are really some ingenious breakthroughs as to how these things can be accomplished without needing to mess much with the core programming - mostly xml and building traits... I love it!

Thanks. I just work with what I know how to mod. Which basically limited to xml. I would say my methods are almost "meta-gaming" in the way that I am using features of a game in a new way that it was not intend it to be used as (ex. Fake Resources, Fake Goods, Space Colonies, Ordinances, Wonder Civs, etc).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Unique Buildings Re-Envisioned

* = Done

Genera Buildings
- Mall*
- Pavilion*
- Assembly Plant*
- Terrace*
- Hippodome*
- Mausoleum*
- Longhouse*
- Shale Plant*
- Trading Post*
- Stele*

National Wonders
- Dike*
- Stock Exchange*
- Research Institute*

Great Wonders
- Ekal Masharti*
- Dun*
- Salon*
- Baray*
- Hammam*
- Fetoria*
- Ho Trai*
- Ikhanda*

Religious Buildings
- Obelisk (Kemetisim)*
- Madrassa (Islam)*
- Odeon (Helenism)*
- Citadel (Christianity)*
- Ziggurat (Mesopotamian)*
- Ger (Tengriism)*
- Ball Court (Naghaulism)*

Civic Buildings
- Totem Pole (Tribalism)*
- Forum (Republic)*

Retired Buildings
- Sacrificial Alter (already have this)*
- Garden (already have stuff similar to this)*
- Iron Forge (already have stuff similar to this)*
- Ratheus (already have stuff similar to this)*
- Mint (already have stuff similar to this)*
- Apothecary (already have stuff similar to this)*
- Stele (There were 2)*
- Sewon (already as a wonder)*

 

[Hydromancerx]

So my phasing out of the buildings is coming along nicely. I have a few done so far. I had some trouble with taking out the art for some so I had to go back and replace the file with the old one. I also found out VD called some UBs so I had to alter a file in that too. So at the moment besides updating my files I will be editing the following ...

CIV4BuildingInfos (Adds new stats for them)
CIV4BuildingClassInfos (Makes them stand alone buildings)
CIV4CivilizationInfos (Removes them from the civs)
VD_CIV4CivilizationInfos (Removes them from the civs again)

Since they are part of the core files I could not make this modular. There is no overwrite for deleting a building. Some cool things I have done so far is ...

Totem Pole
- Requires Tribalism Civic
- Requires Wood Carver's Hut and Good (Wood) buildings.
- Requires Wood Working tech

Stele
- Requires Ceremonial Burial tech
- Requires Graveyard building

Obelisk
- Requires Kemetism religion

Those are just some simple examples with the ex-monument buildings.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So my phasing out of the buildings is coming along nicely. I have a few done so far. I had some trouble with taking out the art for some so I had to go back and replace the file with the old one. I also found out VD called some UBs so I had to alter a file in that too. So at the moment besides updating my files I will be editing the following ...

CIV4BuildingInfos (Adds new stats for them)
CIV4BuildingClassInfos (Makes them stand alone buildings)
CIV4CivilizationInfos (Removes them from the civs)
VD_CIV4CivilizationInfos (Removes them from the civs again)

Since they are part of the core files I could not make this modular. There is no overwrite for deleting a building. Some cool things I have done so far is ...

Totem Pole
- Requires Tribalism Civic
- Requires Wood Carver's Hut and Good (Wood) buildings.
- Requires Wood Working tech

Stele
- Requires Ceremonial Burial tech
- Requires Graveyard building

Obelisk
- Requires Kemetism religion

Those are just some simple examples with the ex-monument buildings.

You might be able to use the force over write tag, or what ever it is called, to make it a null building.

You do know that a stelle is just a rock with writing on it. Sort of like a poster. It is about getting your feats known.

 

[Hydromancerx]

You might be able to use the force over write tag, or what ever it is called, to make it a null building.

You do know that a stelle is just a rock with writing on it. Sort of like a poster. It is about getting your feats known.

I don't think you can have a null building. Only changing existing ones I thought.

As for the Stele I thought it was like a commiserative monument.

A stele is a stone or wooden slab, generally taller than it is wide, erected for funerals or commemorative purposes, most usually decorated with the names and titles of the deceased or living — inscribed, carved in relief, or painted onto the slab. It can also be used as territorial markers to delineate land ownership.

Which is why i linked it to the graveyard.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You change the existing one so that it does not appear in game. Set cost = -1 and prereq tech = NONE. It is still there but not there in game! Not sure this will work if it is mentioned in the civilization files.

 

[Hydromancerx]

You change the existing one so that it does not appear in game. Set cost = -1 and prereq tech = NONE. It is still there but not there in game! Not sure this will work if it is mentioned in the civilization files.

I will try and see. Cross your fingers.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Don't forget that the Myth buildings never obsolete but do have their bonus lost. This means that you can use them as a fake fake resource by having the building required but not in the current city.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Dancing Hoskuld

I tried you "null building" idea and this is what it looks like.

I think we are better off just putting <!-- --> around the building code to disable it but not actually take it out.

EDIT: Hmm that doesn't seem to work either. I keep getting an error saying the building is missing. Which I obviously want to to be gone but not give an error.

EDIT2: Since it not working I am going back to my original plan of editing the core files. Its easy to add stuff wit mods but not so easy to removed stuff with mods.

 

[Hydromancerx]

So not so long ago I proposed origin techs for each civilization, such as "Homeland Africa", "Homeland Asia", etc. I am thinking of revisiting this idea but with with new Unique Buildings. For instance let say we have with the core civs ...

Culture
Req Tech: Cultural Identity
Cost: ?
Bonus: Can Build "X Embassy" Twice as Fast

Spoiler :

Culture (African)
- Carthage Empire
- Egyptian Empire
- Ethiopian Empire
- Malinese Empire
- Zulu Empire

Culture (American)
- American Empire
- Aztec Empire
- Incan Empire
- Iroquois Empire
- Mayan Empire
- Native American Empire

Culture (Asian)
- Chinese Empire
- Indian Empire
- Japanese Empire
- Khmer Empire
- Korean Empire
- Mongolian Empire
- Siamese Empire

Oceania
- NONE

Culture (European)
- Celtic Empire
- Dutch Empire
- English Empire
- French Empire
- Greek Empire
- Holy Roman Empire
- Portuguese Empire
- Roman Empire
- Russian Empire
- Spanish Empire
- Viking Empire

Culture (Middle Eastern)
- Arabian Empire
- Assyrian Empire
- Babylonian Empire
- Byzantine Empire
- Hittite Empire
- Ottoman Empire
- Persian Empire
- Sumerian Empire

Thus if you are Greek you get Culture (European) as your unique building and it will allow you to build any of the European type embassies twice as fast as non-European civilizations.

The other potential of having a culture building is that Assimilation will actually have a use because if you take over say a Japanese city then that city will have a "Culture (Asian)" building rather than a "Culture (European)" one.

Note I could always change the name to "Ethnicity" instead of "Culture" if you guys don't think the name fits.

EDIT: The other thing i could do is make one for each individual civ and just have their effect based on the closet cultural groups. Such as Culture (British) could build the American Embassy faster even though its under the Americas.

 

[bill2505]

So not so long ago I proposed origin techs for each civilization, such as "Homeland Africa", "Homeland Asia", etc. I am thinking of revisiting this idea but with with new Unique Buildings. For instance let say we have with the core civs ...

Culture
Req Tech: Cultural Identity
Cost: ?
Bonus: Can Build "X Embassy" Twice as Fast

Spoiler :

Culture (African)
- Carthage Empire
- Egyptian Empire
- Ethiopian Empire
- Malinese Empire
- Zulu Empire

Culture (American)
- American Empire
- Aztec Empire
- Incan Empire
- Iroquois Empire
- Mayan Empire
- Native American Empire

Culture (Asian)
- Chinese Empire
- Indian Empire
- Japanese Empire
- Khmer Empire
- Korean Empire
- Mongolian Empire
- Siamese Empire

Oceania
- NONE

Culture (European)
- Celtic Empire
- Dutch Empire
- English Empire
- French Empire
- Greek Empire
- Holy Roman Empire
- Portuguese Empire
- Roman Empire
- Russian Empire
- Spanish Empire
- Viking Empire

Culture (Middle Eastern)
- Arabian Empire
- Assyrian Empire
- Babylonian Empire
- Byzantine Empire
- Hittite Empire
- Ottoman Empire
- Persian Empire
- Sumerian Empire

Thus if you are Greek you get Culture (European) as your unique building and it will allow you to build any of the European type embassies twice as fast as non-European civilizations.

The other potential of having a culture building is that Assimilation will actually have a use because if you take over say a Japanese city then that city will have a "Culture (Asian)" building rather than a "Culture (European)" one.

Note I could always change the name to "Ethnicity" instead of "Culture" if you guys don't think the name fits.

EDIT: The other thing i could do is make one for each individual civ and just have their effect based on the closet cultural groups. Such as Culture (British) could build the American Embassy faster even though its under the Americas.

first of all i dont like the embassy whole idea . who said that embassy is a local unit recruitment center .locan units should be recruited only if you conquere the nation
first of all when i play as greeks i want to play as greeks the same goes for america and the rest .i dont want black zulu greeks or chineze greeks(i am refering to the units) i want original greeks . i want a game where i will be able to take my nation and play regardly of the map
. you take your nation with your nation specific units and building and play .when i conquere a nation i agree on recruiting their local uint but only in this city or if you want this feature so bad make it as i have suggested .¨nevermind i thing you are determined and this is a sad thing but please at least can this idea of your being made in the game last( i mean create a version which will be full of the feature and after that create the system that you like .for example create a x version which is bug free all included mods are updated and everything you plan is included except this and after that build this system in the game as you want so people can download either .please¨

still i thing that this idea destroys the whole game point and many will agree with me .the number one complain about civ games always is the lack of flavor units and building and you want to destroy the already few flavor units and buildings . about the buildings some building should be buildable by all civs like mall. mall is the replacement for market which is wrong because mall is something different
Mall (huge building with many shops )
market( small shop) but as greeks building ikhanda when you can build barracks i find it pointless