C3C Scenario/Mod: Rising Sun

[Mr Black]

Good to see you back Pawel. I haven't been able to continue this scenario at the moment. But within a few days I think, I'll be able to squeeze in a few game turns.

I'm not real familiar with these relics, (haven't played Middle Ages scenario much). I do know about the treasures though. Am I supposed to take the relic to my capital? And where will the cultural treasures come from?

EDIT: I’ve been able to play a few more turns. England demanded 20 Gold, I payed. Russia demanded some tech,I can’t see them on the map, but I’m sure they’re located far away around Moscow area. So I reject their demands and Russia backs down.

The year 950 AD, there are 3.749.000 of us Japanese roaming the planet, the fifth largest. We also have the fifth largest land mass, I wonder if it’s counting my sea squares. Anyway, life in Japan is somewhat boring, with no conflicts around, however I’m getting close to researching for my Samurais.

But, while there is little excitement in Japan, it’s a different story in China, as they struggle for their survival. Many other nations hate them, but their 3 neighbors are the primary hunters (Persia, India, Korea). Persia has taken over Tsingtou (sp?), and Hangchow in the Chinese mainland. They burned another Chinese city to the ground, not sure what name it had. The Indians captured Chinan, (in present-day Singapore), but have lost the city of Bangalore to the Chinese. The Koreans have done nothing, they are weak and I’m eyeing them VERY closely. My Samurais and a weak nation, make a deadly combination.

 

[Yuurei]

My game ended prematurely because I had the victory point setting on, and I reached the point limit. I was playing on a random map that I had enlarged to 362 x 362 by changing the parameters as I usually do. I had wiped out the French and Americans, but others survived. Saved by the bell, as I had satellites and now knew where everyone was. My economy was thriving and I could support a large enough military to dominate anyone I could find.

I am now using Rising Sun as a base to try my hand at including Piracy, Ball Games, and Imperialism and there benefits on my own. I am not sure exactly what I am doing, but I feel it is moving in the right direction. I still cannot determine why the Step pyramid cannot be built in your game. Are you certain it works in your random map version?

Yuurei.


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[Pawel]

I have posted a fix so that the Asian Settler cost includes 2 food as intended. If you install the fixed version, you'll have to re-apply the PTW extension (if you use it).

Mr. Black:
I see you have plenty of scenarios in progress! I'm trying to decide which one to download first! I am glad to hear that you found time to play some turns of the Rising Sun as well, though, and the events you describe are very interesting! I wonder if this could also be affected by the patches, since corruption adjustments and similar changes will alter the relative strengths of the various civs.
As to the relic, it is used very differently here than in the Middle Ages scenario. Actually, the main reason to introduce it is to fix a bug in civ. When you making a scenario it is usually preferable to place units on the map yourself rather than having standard settler and worker appearing in the starting circle. However, if you set both unit1 and unit2 under general settings to 'none', the starting circles disappear from the map and you're in trouble. What happens then is that the scouts of expansionist civilizations and the extra units the AI gets at higher level appear in random locations, which can be very annoying. By giving each nation a relic, one can keep the starting circles on the map. Its only use in the game is that is can either be sacrificed for culture or scapped for shields. It is a nice trick, though.

Yuurei:
I think that playing around with the scenario is a very good way to learn how to make one yourself. However, in version 2.31 of the Rising Sun, which will follow the official 1.13 patch, I will include the following entries in the pediaicons.txt file:
PRTO_Sea_Dog, TECH_Piracy, TECH_Ball_Games, and BLGD_Ball_Court.
I wasn't really sure about the last one, since the Conquests scenario only uses the Ball Court as a replacement for the Colosseum. Now you will be able to have both. All you'll have to do is to set them up in the editor.
Unfortunately I have failed to reproduce your problem with the pyramids. Maybe you could try again? It would also be interesting to see how you like the modern units...

 

[Pawel]

I have now posted version 2.31. Since the 1.13 and 1.15 patches seem a little experimental, and the real patch is not due until late February, I decided not to wait. The new version introduces Mercade's QueueMod adapted to the Rising Sun.

Yuurei:
In addition to the entries mentioned above, I have also prepared TECH_Imperialism. Enjoy, and Good Luck!

 

[Mr Black]

I’m still in 1.12, I won’t patch until the official version is up. I don’t trust these experimental patches.

Anyway, back to the game reports. The Chinese have made peace with Korea and India, with their forces now concentrating only on Persia, they have managed to recapture Tringtao and Hangchow, also they build the city of Paoting in the ruins of their burned city. It looks like China will make it after all. They even demanded Spices from me. And with their Riders looking menacing, I had to pay up.

In the year 1065 the Koreans declared war on the Persians. Very good, since throughout this time I’ve been very slooooooooowly building up a large force of Samurais on the Japan-Korea border.

Finally, it’s the year 1095 and we’re in the eve off the Great Korean War. I’m just trying to get that Horse resource in the lower-left of the picture below, as well as Namp’o and Pusan.

 

[Mr Black]

Lately it appears that the Germans are building all of the Great Wonders. I suppose they are leading the tech race. Here is the World Ranking, which I think puts too much emphasize on land area. I cannot Map Trade, so I don’t know what the Western Hemisphere civs look like.

One question, the highest level I’ve won in the Epic game is Regent. And that was a modded Regent to help me out a little. I’m currently playing Emperor and doing a lot better than I expected, did you design this scenario, to give a nice boost to Japan???

 

[Pawel]

Wow! This was really exciting to see! I am very curious about the Korean war. I hope that the exchange of Smaurai's the extra move point for the enslavement capability will make it more interesting, but make some of the new other units more attractive as well!

As to your question, is there a boost to Japan? Well, yes and no. In general, the Japanese have a little more units to choose from, and most of these tend to have some small edge over the regular ones. They also get one extra tech at the start, which most other civs don't. On the other hand, their starting position is not very easy, so it should be difficult to win the game early on, whatever the difficulty setting. However, the difference between the various levels is much smaller than in the epic game. The AI gets no extra settlers and workers at the start, and the number of extra combat units has been reduced, but the production and diplomacy settings have not been altered, so the AI will get more aggressive at higher levels. While it will not be able to go in for an instant kill, it will eventually outproduce you if you do not keep an edge. If you are lucky to survive the initial phases of the high level epic game, and manage to get hold of some territory, the later stages should probably be rather similar.

It was also very interesting to see the World Ranking. Actually, one of the "behind the scenes" ideas of the scenario was that the two major challenges to Japan would be China in the early game, and America in the late game. Still, if the Americans had too easy a time, they might become an impossible challenge. The table indicates, however, that they are reasonably contained between their major northern (Iroqois) and southern (Inca) neighbors, preventing too early a confrontation with Japan, or a South American conquest. The African situation also seems reasonably balanced, with neither Egypt, Carthage, or the Zulus beeing too dominant. I suppose the Germans have broked out east, and thus kept pace with the Russians populationwise, but as you say eclipsing them technologically. Overall, the European situation seems reasonably stable, though. And this is a good thing, because if another distant power would become too strong early on, this might have shifted the focus of the entire scenario. It would be interesting to hear if you think some re-balancing may be beneficial. The Mongols seem, for instance, not to pose too much of a threat to Japan at the moment, nor do they seem very involved in asian affairs in general, which is surprising considering their aggression level... This in sharp contrast to the Persians and Indians, who seem to be very active.

I have downloaded the latest versions of your scenario's, but unfortunately I have not had too much time to play lately, as I am applying for a new job (in the States, actually). On the other hand, I see that you have had lots of feedback.

 

[Mr Black]

Good luck on your job search.

OK, the Great Korean War turned into the Great Korean Massacre. During the Great Buildup, I put all tech research to 10% and build up a huge gold reserve, to hurry up temples, walls and other stuff in the newly conquered cities. I am now even further behind in tech, but at least now I can buy some.

My force consisted of Samurais, Minamoto Samurais and Fire Catapults, I also had 3 Shoni no Kagesuke waiting in Kyoto. Once the Horses resource was secured, I’d upgrade them to Nakamaro Horseman. The Koreans had Pikemen, Spearmen, Horsemen, and Medieval Infantry. I also noticed they had some Asian Spearmen, it looks like they are identical to the regular Spearmen. Why not make the regular Spearman unavailable to China and Korea.

Early in the very brief war, I brought in the Mongols, just because I thought I would need them. It turns out the Mongols are weaker than the Koreans. No Keshik, they’re still fighting with Horsemen. After taking the 3 desired cities, I could have taken Pyongyang and Seoul, but decided not to risk letting the Koreans bring in the feared Chinese in our conflict. We got a peace treaty, my rep suffered a bit, not that I’m really worried about that. I left the Mongols and the Koreans to fight it out, and so far the Koreans have captured 1 city and threatning another.

I suffered very little casualties and am now left with a very BIG army, thanks to my G.A. The days of Japan paying tribute are OVER! I can’t wait for the next nation to ask me tribute.

 

[Mr Black]

World Situation

I was able to buy a World Map from the friendly Germans. As you can see, Japan has 3 island cities somewhat close to the Incan Empire. The Persians are a lot smaller than I thought, perhaps that’s why they lost all of their Chinese possessions.

About the Mongols;
Early on the Mongols got into a fight with the Scandinavians. I couldn’t see any of the fight and so I didn’t write about it. That war must have kept their attention in Europe and also slowed their tech pace. Perhaps the situation would be different if they hadn’t fought this long war with the Vikings.

Interestingly, the Vikings actually have only one city in Scandinavia, Stockholm. They have some more in Greenland. It seems the Byzantines have settled all over Scandinavia. I’ll check on this some more later, to see what exactly happened here.

The Germans have settled in Far-East Russia, while the Russians appear to have suffered huge losses to the Indians. I didn’t know anything about this Russian-Indian war, but the Indians have a couple of cities in Russia including Moscow!

 

[Mr Black]

A huge dog-pile on America has begun, led mostly by Germany. But most of the warring nations are also in the Eastern Hemisphere. There is also another dog-pile, this one is on Russia, led mostly by the Indians, whom are stomping all over them.

The Korean-Mongol war is over, with the Mongols taking back their lost city.

China and Rome go to war. Roman cities in present-day Russia begin to fall to the Chinese hoards.

Theodora of the Byzantines came by demanding some Spices! No more tribute payments and the Byzaahs backed down.

Dog-pile on America now gets serious, as the Aztecs and Incas join in. America’s power may be cut down, before I get a chance to.

LOL!!! Freaking Lincoln demands my Territory Map AND 83 Gold. After saying NO, the Americans declare war on ME!!! This is one nation that could do without one more enemy, oh well. My Junks aren’t going to be able to reach the California coast however, so I’ll just defend my offshore possessions. Although, I doubt the Americans will launch any serious threat.

The Russians have been wiped-out of the continent, they are left with one little island tundra-city, north of Siberia, near the North Pole. The big winners, were the Byzantines and Indians.

Iroquois demand 63 Gold, I decline, they back down. I don’t know why everyone still thinks I’m paying tribute.

With the Roman cities in present-day Russia conquered, the Chinese have now begun the movement of all forces to Europe and the Roman motherland. Japan and Chinese relations have improved, to the point where we have an ROP agreement. But if their forces are in Europe when the ROP expires, it’s GO TIME!!! The Chinese War has been brewing since the dawn of time in Asia, may we wipe them off the face of this earth.


P.S. The remainig Viking city in Scandinavia is Uppsala, Stockholm is somewhere in Canada. And with this picture, it's very clear to see what happened to them.

 

[Pawel]

Very interesting! I wonder if the very agressive behavior is partly due to the fact that you play at Emperor level. I any case, some of the developments are really amazing.

I think the situation in Scandinavia is especially funny! BtW, you were right in your assumption about Stockholm. Uppsala is just an older city where I happen to live at the moment. I had no idea that the Byzantines, who replaced the Ottomans and the Greeks, would prove so resourceful. One major asset in their victories must have been the Legions, which they share with Rome. In addition, neither of the two can build Medieval Infantry, which is not worth the extra 10 shields. This extends the life time of the Legions, which are now also able to build roads and forts. I am not sure if the AI actually uses this ability, though. In the next version I will remove the Byzantines' ability to build Pikemen and Galleasses, and let the Dromon upgrade to Ship-of-the-Line instead of Caravel. This may make the AI more effective, though, so I am not sure how what the total impact will be.

EDIT: The AI does use the Legions for building roads.

From the world map I also see that handful of civs have been wiped out. Perhaps I shall give them an extra unit or two at the start. The Incas, for instance, may have had too easy a time. I am not very surprised that the Egyptians eradicated the Arabs, but I have not seen the Carthagians do so well before. I also wonder whether the new super Elephant from Conquests contributed to India's success...

To me it seems that due to the dynamic situation, the policies of Japan may actually have quite a large impact from the very beginning. And this is a good thing! You are also probably right that the time for a war agains China is approaching rapidly. One thing you may want to try out are the Ninjas. They are good Rider killers - even during peace time. As you say, the Americans seem to be in trouble. A German led anti-American coalition seems like a new approach. I wonder if the Americans are strong enough to survive the onslaught...

Do you have any other balancing suggestions?

 

[Mr Black]

OK, I haven’t had time to continue much in these last days, but from what little I have played, I can tell easily that war with China was a BAD move.

I had forgotten that the Spanish, Arabs and French were even in this game. Also, it currently looks like the Russians will be making a painful exit to this game. Right now, I’ve got no balancing suggestions.

Anyway, this week I’ll be able to play some more meaningful turns, so update coming soon!!!

 

[Mr Black]

Update:
1250 AD the Persians ally with Rome to declare war on China, thus the Second Sino-Persian War begins.

1265, we cannot wait any longer and the invasion of China begins. I try to bring other nations, but only the Koreans agree.

I am fighting with the same troops from the Korean War, except for a few Ninjas and Oda Arquebusiers. The 1st attack on Macao fails miserably, I’m going up against Chinese Musketmen. A second group moves toward the city of Beijing.

Sapporo FALLS!!! Sapporo located in present-day southern Borneo is captured by Chinese Longbowmen.

1280, the 2nd attack on Macao and the 1st attack on Beijing both prove to be utter failures. I don’t think I’ve killed a Musketman yet. But I’ll have to soon, as there are about 3 Chinese Musketmen surrounding the city of Namp’o. The decision is made, there will be no further attacks on Chinese cities.

Back in the South Pacific, the liberation attempt of Sapporo is also a complete failure, those Longbowmen are better defenders than we thought. There is a significant garrison in the Philipines, these guys will have to get the job done.

Major Developments regarding America vs. World;
Americans have captured English cities of Exeter, Brighton, Reading all located in Northern Canada/ Greenland. Also the city of Los Angeles in Greenland is captured by the Germans. However, in a major shock, the Americans have crossed to Atlantic and have taken over the city of Cork in Ireland. American Knights have also been spotted moving in the direction of London itself.

1300, there is somewhat of a world wide trade embargo against us, but my rep is bad anyway. Chinese city of Hangchow is captured by the Persians.

1305 Sapporo is finally liberated. The city was held so long by the Chinese that there is actually a Chinese citizen in there, time for the re-education program. Also, the Mongols are hammering the Koreans, taking Cheju and Hyangsan, I think Korea has only 3 cities left.

1310 Chinese city of Tsingtao is captured by the Persians. With Sapporo back in our hands, I think it’s time for peace. We are able to get the Chinese city of Neopolis, which is located in present=day Kamchatka peninsula in Far-East Russia. We also decide to end the American War, which has not seen any battles. Surprisingly we are able to take the cities of Dallas, Exeter, Brighton all in the frozen wasteland known as Northern Canada. I think I’ll keep them.

In conclusion, we are a nation of 7.783.000 2nd in the world, but the largest nation in land area.

 

[Pawel]

This is really exciting! It sounds like you manage to move your positions forward, slowly but surely. Probably a very good strategy, especially considering ther others' tendency to gang up against the big guys. As you noticed, the Chinese are not an easy target, though. Not only do they have the wall, but Bejing and several other cities are located on hills and near rivers, so taking them is quite a challenge. And with their first free shot, even archers and longbowmen, as well as their Japanese rivals, are now useful for defense... Of course, the Americans also seem to do fairly well, especially considering the circumstances. It will be interesting to see what happens when their industrial era units appear, for instance the heavy bombers... On Friday evening I am leaving for a week, but I really look forward to the next chapter of this story!

 

[Mr Black]

That reminds me, I forgot one thing to add. The Indians, Germans and English all appear to have already reached the Industrial Age. I'm still only half-way throught teh (the) Middle Ages. That means that theoretically (sp?) I may be about 10 techs behind.

But I'm OK in points, so if anyone tries to fly off to A.C. I'll have to KILL them.

 

[Pawel]

OK, one last question before I leave then. I have tried to compress the time line compared to the standard game, but from what you write it appears that the pace is still a little too slow. Right now is goes as follows
200 BC - 1000 AD: 10 years per turn
1000 - 1500: 5
1500 - 1800: 3
1800 - 1950: 2
1950 - 2095: 1 (after which you reach 540 turns)
How would you change this to better reflect what is going on in the game?

 

[Mr Black]

Do you mean, the years are going by too slowly, for the techs???

In any case, I'll have to think some more about this.

Update coming soon, see you in a week!

 

[Mr Black]

Americans have taken the Aztecs down to 1 city, Galapagos. They also roared through Central America, the Mayans are barely holding on.

Meanwhile, the Germans have taken over Cork in Ireland, and more American cities in Greenland.

Unbelievably, the Americans demand Terr. Map and 63 Gold!!! Well, we’re at war again.

It’s the year 1425, New Beijing has been captured by the Persians, but Paoting was recaptured by the Chinese. Persian city of Sidon in the South Pacific also taken by Chinese.

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Here things get very OUT OF CONTROL!
Germany demands Terr. Map and 79 Gold! Once again I say no, without thinking about it. Now we’re at war, oh oh.

England joins Germany in their crusade to get rid of the peaceful people of Japan. That’s BAD, my South Pacific cities are not defended too well and are suffering from a massive amount of corruption.

Funny, the Aztecs and their 1 city have also declared war on me. Not so funny, the Mongols decide to join in the ‘let’s kill the Japanese’ party.

It's the year 1445, the Germans appear in the Mongolian- Japanese border. Oh my, there are so many. I’ve so far counted about 30 and they’re all about 2 tiles away from Namp’o. I think I can hold them off. However, when the English start landing troops in the south, that will be different. The defense of our motherland will not be easy, only a divine wind can help us now.

BTW, my three cities in Northern Canada have now been disbanded, after realizing I wasn’t going to hold them.

 

[Mr Black]

Hmm, I forgot to attach the current World Map.

 

[Pawel]

Wow, I see a lot has happened during my week in Michigan! Sounds exciting, though! I hope you survive! Seems that someone has been spending money to get the coalition going. The Aztecs were probably cheap, though... I'll try to post version 2.34 soon, with a somewhat quicker time pace and one more great wonder.