C3C - SID - Rise of Carthage - as guided by Spoonwood

[Raliuven]

Lurker:
Answer for Spoonwood:

Spoiler :

The black and white answer: you are alone on your landmass.

Good Luck!

Oh yeah, and lurking!

 

[creamcheese]

Okay, according to the roster I am next, so this is my got it.

I'm about to go to bed, so I'll play tomorrow afternoon.

This start looks good, if we get an SGL or the AI is slow in their wonder building we should be alright.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Wow! A great starting location and a greate write-up, Spoonwood. And we have ivory, that's really a huge bonus. If we can get the SoZ that would be great. I'm a little concerned about the curragh spotting another island so early, I really hope it's not Japan or the Aztecs as I've almost every time been invaded by them straight after Map Making... Even at least agressive. Regarding how many turns we play from now on, I'm up for both 5 or 10 - what about you creamcheese and Elephantium?

 

[Spoonwood]

Thanks Raliuven!

 

[AnthonyIII]

As I am the trainee in this game I'm going to ask a lot of questions, to take advantage and learn from you guys. I hope this is OK!

20-3000 BC 001 worker-settler. The new worker moves to the undeveloped cow to mine it. After it mines and roads that spot, this worker should move to the irrigated cow and mine it... co-ordinating the completion of the mine with 5 food for 002... that is 002 gets all three cows. This should, I think, time nicely enough though that 001 can spit out another settler without wasting shields. If it does seem like 001 would waste shields... we might want to put out a curragh or warrior from 001 first, and then a settler. The 3rd city should go so that it grabs the cow at the 6-6 spot from 002, so that 002 has access to the other bonus grassland, and such that it's NOT on a hill, but rather one square beyond the hill. Accordingly with developing the other BG as quickly as possible, the worker now mining should finish it's mine, road, and then road up the hill at the "8" spot from 002. Also, in 4 turns, we want 001 off of the grassland cow, so that 002 can use upon growing to size 4. This suggests we might want to go warrior-settler in 001, though I'm not sure at this point. And the warrior we would use for MP in 002. And make sure to keep on checking the luxury slider so no one revolts!

Spoiler :

What do we gain by mining the irrigated cow? Is there any downside to this? Just seems to a new player like me that having a square worked twice in different ways so early in the game is very unconventional. Is it? I also think we could go warrior-settler in 001, could we use the warrior to begin scouting our island or is it best to use him as MP?

EDIT: And thanks for taking the trouble to check if we were alone, Railuven!

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: Spoonwood may well come along to correct me, but I'll take a stab at this:

. . . .
What do we gain by mining the irrigated cow? Is there any downside to this? Just seems to a new player like me that having a square worked twice in different ways so early in the game is very unconventional. Is it? I also think we could go warrior-settler in 001, could we use the warrior to begin scouting our island or is it best to use him as MP?

I probably would not have thought to re-work a square so early in the game, but I'm going to guess that the answer lies in what Spoonwood has already said:

The new worker moves to the undeveloped cow to mine it. After it mines and roads that spot, this worker should move to the irrigated cow and mine it... co-ordinating the completion of the mine with 5 food for 002... that is 002 gets all three cows.

(empasis supplied). Mining the irrigated square is designed to maximize shields for 002, while maintaining +5fpt. Growth at +5 gpt comes at 4 turns, pre-granary. Growth at +6 fpt, pregranary, also comes at 4 turns, with 4 wasted food. If mining the cow takes it from +6 fpt to +5 fpt, shields are gained without wasting food or losing time in growth.

Am I close, Spoonwood?

 

[Elephantium]

Aabracadabra! You're a wizard! AFAIK, that's exactly right -- each cow gives 3fpt + 1spt unimproved. Irrigation gives 4f, 1s. Mining gives 3f, 2s. Working three mined cows gives 9+2 (city center) = 11 fpt - 6fpt (feed the citizens) = 5fpt for fast growth, no wasted food on growth. It also gives more shields to the Pyramids city than keeping it on one irrigated, one mined cow.

 

[AnthonyIII]

And that cow was not mined in the first place because then we needed the 4 food pr turn? And when the other cow was mined, it was better to rework the irrigated one than to improve the bonus greassland or the grassland(can't see beacuse of the city names) next to were the worker stands in the spoiler - because a BG can never give more than two food/two shields anyway in Despotism? Sorry for asking such simple questions, but I really want to make the most of your knowledge! I hope you're not starting to regret playing Sid with me already! I guess Deity is a bit more forgiving on theese early turns.

 

[creamcheese]

Turns out mining the cow will have to wait.

Turn Log:

Spoiler :

Turn 0, 3000BC; Look around, take note of Spoonwood's plan and hit enter.

IBT; 002 Grows, worker finishes mine on BG tile.

Turn 1, 2950BC; Cow worker starts mine, BG worker starts road. Curragh goes north around island to our east. Lux to 30%.

IBT; zzz

Turn 2, 2900BC; Curragh finds what is probably another island. I think we will waste shields in 001 and we need an MP so I switch to a warrior.

IBT; 001 grows, BG worker completes road.

Turn 3, 2850BC; BG worker to hill north of 002. More exploring.

IBT; 001 warrior-->settler

Turn 4, 2800BC; Warrior to 002. Lux to 20%. Hill worker roads, headed for that BG to the northeast. MM 001 to two BGs so 002 gets the cow when it grows. Growth in 9, settler in 10, well timed! No one lives on the first island we discovered.

IBT; cow worker finishes mine. 002 grows.

Turn 5, 2750BC; Cow worker roads. 002 got the third cow on growth as planned, and the mine had just finished. Curragh goes north. Lux to 30%.

IBT; zzz

Turn 6, 2710BC; Scouting.

IBT; cow worker completes road.

Turn 7, 2670BC; Cow worker moves to the irrigated cow and mines it. Scouting, still no contacts.

IBT; hill worker completes road.

Turn 8, 2630BC; Hill worker mines, since we won't get that BG tile until our settler is done and moved into position; I realize I should have mined first. Spot another island to the east.

IBT; 002 expands.

Turn 9, 2590BC; Crap , I realize that by mining the Cow and working the hill, we will go below 5fpt. Since we have no BGs in range, I move the cow worker to the hill. We may have to mine the cow later, or not. It allows us to work hills. Curragh to new island.

IBT; zzz

Turn 10, 2550BC; Scouting, still no contacts. Pyramids in 39, Writing in 20. 193g and +9gpt.

Pic for Lurkers:

Spoiler :

Okay, so I made two mistakes. I roaded the hill before mining, and I stuck blindly to the "mine the cow" plan, without taking in to account how long it would take for our new settler to get us that BG. May have cost a few shields, although they may have just been corrupted anyway, I am not sure. Make sure to have that BG east of 002 up and running about when our settler eventually gets in position for 003.

No contacts, so no trading. The next player will probably find someone, so we might get some trades if we are lucky.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Alright. Got it. Not sure if I will play tonight though, as it's pretty late where I'm sitting. Good job, creamcheese! Some questions: Where do we place 003? If you want me to mine the BG east of 002 then I presume you want 003 on the regular grassland between the BG and the cow? That seems like a good spot. If I meet some contacts I will pause and start a discussion on what to do here, as Spoonwood wanted. That is, if we can make any deals at all.

EDIT: I see you played 10 turns creamcheese, I'll do that as well, if I don't get too nervous then I'll stop after 5.

 

[creamcheese]

Alright. Got it. Not sure if I will play tonight though, as it's pretty late where I'm sitting. Good job, creamcheese! Some questions: Where do we place 003? If you want me to mine the BG east of 002 then I presume you want 003 on the regular grassland between the BG and the cow? That seems like a good spot. If I meet some contacts I will pause and start a discussion on what to do here, as Spoonwood wanted. That is, if we can make any deals at all.

EDIT: I see you played 10 turns creamcheese, I'll do that as well, if I don't get too nervous then I'll stop after 5.

Yes, that is the best spot as it gets us the cow and the BG for our 20k city.

Yes, we didn't discuss how many to play, and 10 is standard, so I went with that to keep the game moving.

 

[Spoonwood]

What do we gain by mining the irrigated cow? Is there any downside to this? Just seems to a new player like me that having a square worked twice in different ways so early in the game is very unconventional. Is it? I also think we could go warrior-settler in 001, could we use the warrior to begin scouting our island or is it best to use him as MP?

Aabraxan's explanation supplies the answer basically. Mining the irrigated cow gives us more shields per turn, while keeping 002 at 4 turn growth. We could have had two irrigated grassland cows for 7 fpt and 3 turn growth, but for this location this comes as much less advantageous. No doubt it comes as unconventional, but so does Sid 20k. The cow was not mined in the first place so that we could get 001 and then 002 to 4 food per turn. If we had only two grassland cows, I don't think we would have wanted to mine the irrigated cow. The warrior could get used to scout our island a little provided that...

1. The exact turn we learn Writing it goes back into 002. We won't have as much in treasury if we do this, but this may work out better overall.

And when the other cow was mined, it was better to rework the irrigated one than to improve the bonus greassland or the grassland(can't see because of the city names) next to were the worker stands in the spoiler - because a BG can never give more than two food/two shields anyway in Despotism?

We have one of the bonus grasslands mined. The other we can't use yet.

I'll need to take a look at what CreamCheese has there.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Quick question to get it absolutely clear, as I can see what I wrote was a bit unaccurate. Between the BG and the cow there is a hill. 1 tile up from the hill is a regular grassland. Do you want me to build on the hill or one the regular grassland? I just don't want to get a huge thing like this wrong.

 

[creamcheese]

Quick question to get it absolutely clear, as I can see what I wrote was a bit unaccurate. Between the BG and the cow there is a hill. 1 tile up from the hill is a regular grassland. Do you want me to build on the hill or one the regular grassland? I just don't want to get a huge thing like this wrong.

Regular grassland.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Phew, then we're OK.

 

[Spoonwood]

Creamcheese: I didn't have the best plan there actually. I should have told you to have the worker on the BG finish, then cross the river to the *unroaded* regular grassland and develop it by mining and then roading. The other worker mines the irrigated grassland cow. Then the other worker, I think, would develop another of the regular grassland squares, and one of them roads up one of the hills. I didn't think of this, and it's my fault here (and I might have made the weaker play in a solo game). That said, you didn't do wrong by roading the hill, as I think I left a note for you to do that first. However, you wasted a worker turn by having the second worker move to help out with the hill mining. That loses a turn in just movement... which can prove useful in some situations, and may actually work out well here I'm not exactly sure, but you should at least be aware of the potential downside here. If you want to replay your turns with this plan for the workers in mind such that they develop the regular grasslands and mine the irrigated cow, I wouldn't have a problem personally.

Anthony III: If we continue with this save, 001 should use a forest on this turn instead of a BG, and then use both BGs the next two turns. No matter the save we use, the 3rd city should go so that we have access to both that grassland cow and the BG for 002. This lies in the regular grassland spot north of 002 past the hill. The square comes adjacent to two bonus grasslands, and the grassland cow.

 

[Spoonwood]

Regular grassland.

Yes, regular grassland.

 

[creamcheese]

Creamcheese: I didn't have the best plan there actually. I should have told you to have the worker on the BG finish, then cross the river to the *unroaded* regular grassland and develop it by mining and then roading. The other worker mines the irrigated grassland cow. Then the other worker, I think, would develop another of the regular grassland squares, and one of them roads up one of the hills. I didn't think of this, and it's my fault here (and I might have made the weaker play in a solo game). That said, you didn't do wrong by roading the hill, as I think I left a note for you to do that first. However, you wasted a worker turn by having the second worker move to help out with the hill mining. That loses a turn in just movement... which can prove useful in some situations, and may actually work out well here I'm not exactly sure, but you should at least be aware of the potential downside here. If you want to replay your turns with this plan for the workers in mind such that they develop the regular grasslands and mine the irrigated cow, I wouldn't have a problem personally.

I don't like reloading much, so I'd prefer to stick with my mistakes and do better next time. I'll never learn to be careful if I can go back and fix my mistakes. If the team wants to try again that's fine with me I guess, but I'd prefer to stick with it.

The problem with roading the hill first was we could have completed the mine already and be getting an extra shield. I didn't think about needing another 2food tile so I just went for the hill per the plan. I also realized late that I had set myself up for error, when I went to mine the cow square. I hope I didn't cost us too many shields. Also, with the cow still irrigated, we can get that hill as well as the BG, and then mine a regular grassland later.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Hmm... I'm actually done. I did not see your post about the forest until it was too late Spoonwood. I hope we'll manage.

Turn Log:

Spoiler :

Turn 0, 2550BC: Look around, happy to see another wheat 4 tiles to the left of 002 which I didn't see on the picture in this
thread. Everything is good. Feel a bit humble to be playing for 20k on Sid with you guys. And a bit nervous. Hit enter.

Turn 1, 2510BC: I'm taken to the curragh and has to decide if should go north or south and around the other island. Looks as a fairly big island. I decide to go north, but change my mind as we already scouted 5 tiles to the north, might be better to go around. I do that - n other civs so far. On our home island the workers continue to mine and I leave them to it. Double-check the lux and hit enter.

Turn 2, 2470BC: Our curragh has now rounded the southern tip of our newly found island and is ready to continue north the next turn. Back home, 002 will grow next turn, we have 211 gold , writing due in 18. Workers mine. Hit enter.

Turn 3, 2430BC: 001 grows and 002 grows. Turn luxury slider up to 40%. The new citizen in 001 gets assigned to the regular roaded grassland for now, bringing in 2 food and 2 gold. The new citizen in 002 gets the square next to the roaded BG, and brings in 2 food and 1
gold. Growth for 001 due in 10 - for 002 due in 4. And our workers finish mining! Excellent. Move them to agreed BG and
start mining. Maybe our settler would've founded 003 before had I roaded first, but I hope the extra shield from the mine will make up for it. Curragh continues north along the other island. 001 grows and 002 grows. Turn luxury slider up to 40%. Even with that, we're now making 10 gpt. Hit enter.

Turn 4, 2390BC: 001 finishes settler. I debate whether I should finish a road on the already much speaked about BG so that he will arrive in 2, or start mining and he'll arrive in 3. I go for mining. Send the settler towards the planned spot of 003. Curragh continues north, looks like this island was not so big after all. No contacts. 001 grows in 9. So no worker build started. It's either a warrior or a curragh. I decide to start on a curragh because we need to find some contacts soon. Lux down to 30%.

Turn 5, 2350BC: Curragh continue north. Settler is now on the BG. Not much to do. Hit enter.

Turn 6, 2310BC: Mine on BG finishes. Nice. Starts roading on the same square - and finishes. Ahh, to be industrious. Settler in place for 003, will be founded the next turn. The move reveals another wheat, what seems to be a lake, some BG's and some tobacco grasslands. Will get a better look of things when we settle. Curragh reaches the northern tip of what I thought was a pretty big island, turned out it was not. 002 will grow to size 7 next turn. Hit enter.

Turn 7, 2270BC: My advisor tells me that the Japanese city of Tyoko has completed the Oracle! Good for them, we didn't want it any way. Meanwhile, back on our island 003 gets founded and is instantly connected with the other cities. Hmm... The grassland cow is not workable for 002. Maybe we need a border expansion. I give 003 the grassland cow that is out of reach for 002 to work. It will now grow in 7. Starts on a warrior. I give 002 the finished BG so that it now grows in 8 and the Pyramids are due in 21. That takes me overseas to our curragh. Should I go suicidal? I decide to wait as this is our only curragh and very valuable pr now. Instead I finish rounding the top if the island so we now can see both sides of it. I debate whether I should move our workers to the hill next to the mountain behind 002 to prepare for mining - or if I should move them in 1 turn to 003's grassland cow for irrigation. Then I remember I can't irrigate without fresh water, it would've just gotten an extra shield... Hmm. I go for the 002 hill. After I moved them I realized I also could have improved the land around 001 a bit more, but it would have taken at least two turns to get there and I've read before that in 20k, in 20k city needs to get to size 12 asap and all the shields it can get early... So I hope I did the right thing. I decide to go scout a little bit with our MP in 002. This means I have to adjust the lux but our MP will back before we learn writing. I send him north.

Turn 8, 2230BC: Workers start to mine the hill. Warrior continues north. Can go take some risks with curragh, but decides not to. Instead I sail back up north to maybe make a run for it next turn. I could alter some tiles to make 002 grow in 6 instead of in 7 but this means losing two commerce and I'd rather keep investing shields.

Turn 9: 2190 BC: Warrior scouts, not much interesting. I decide it's time to make a move for the old curragh. Hit enter.

Turn 10: 2150BC: Curragh survives! Decide not to touch anything so that we can decide whether or not to continue scouting with our warrior or move him back to 002. Curragh is also awaiting orders. Swap 001 from BG to forest so that new curragh is due next turn, instead of in two. I realize I've made a big mistake by not swapping to the forest square right away, because then we would already have had our curragh last turn! I'm really sorry guys...

To sum up: Writing in 10, 6gpt - this can be raised by sending home warrior and lowering lux. We have 275 gold in the bank. Three cities: 001 grows in 6, curragh in 1. 002 grows in 5, Pyramids in 18. 003 grows in 4, warrior in 2. Except for the forest/curragh screw up I'm OK
happy with the way it went, I hope I did not make too many big mistakes. If I did, then please don't be afraid to let me know as I'm eager to learn. I'm a bit worried that we haven't met anyone yet as we need techs for our second wonder/temple. We could use another worker and maybe a warrior scout to check out our island for luxes. Our current builds are now a warrior in 003 and a curragh in 001 we might as well talk about it, if something need to be changed.

Pictures:

Spoiler :

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Was this any good at all? How are we hanging in there?

 

[Spoonwood]

002, in this situation, would have done better to use another hill and grow in 5 turns instead of using an unmined grassland square (unless corruption would have taken that shield away). Why? Because we want shields towards the Pyramids ASAP. Note, the Oracle costs less and gives the same culture as the Pyramids. It also won't trigger half of the GA for Carthage. It's not necessarily better, because of the free granaries of the Pyramids. Stacking workers without roads generally wastes turns (1 worker moving to an unroaded square takes up less time than 2 workers both moving to the unroaded square). That said, it might have worked out better here.

You've played far too risky with the curragh, in my opinion. There doesn't exist any need for a suicide run until you've basically scouted all (or close to all) that you can without going suicidal. Also, 001 has 6 food in the box right now, so it should go for the bonus grassland. You only go with quicker builds on items on the condition that you can grow in the same amount of time.