[C3C] Can i force the AI to go nuclear?

[revenantlast]

So, I'm trying to change nukes to WMD's and make them a much bigger part of my mod.
I really want the AI to use them freely, but i really don't want the human player to suffer the diplomatic consequences of using them first.
my idea was to use the sub-bug (AI starting war on invisible units) to force a conflict against a 'terrorist' civ that only has invisible nukes. But I'm sure I read that only a bombard from a nuke can trigger nuclear war, so...

... does anyone know if that's true?
... has anyone ever tried to get the AI to use nukes?
... are there any situations you've noticed that encourages them to 'go nuclear'?
... will barbarians use nukes and if so does this trigger the AI to use them?

I will be doing some testing, but I have a list as long as my tech-tree of things I want to test (mainly using Steph's editor to mess with AI strategy), so if you could give me any advice or observations I would be hugely grateful.

 

[tjs282]

... are there any situations you've noticed that encourages them to 'go nuclear'?

I can recall at least 2 occasions when the AI went first-strike nuclear on me, but both were essentially acts of last-ditch desperation, at a point where my victory was already inevitable.

The first time was Hiawatha, on a Standard Monarch Continents game (pretty sure it was Vanilla rather than C3C). I was the Romans, and hoping to get domination just by conquering my Continent, but it wasn't quite big enough, so I pivoted to Space instead. I wasn't far off winning when Hiawatha sent over a couple of boats, so I made an extremely favourable Lux-trade deal (7 of mine, for the 1 of his) in the hope that he would recall his the troops; but he landed them anyway. Since I'd just finished warring against 5 other Civs (Hiawatha and Lincoln[?] had a large island each), I was way more powerful than him, but he still chose to DoW rather than leave. I killed his troops, Arty-bombed and Cruise-sank all subsequent incoming ships, sent my Tanks to capture the 2 small islands he'd colonised just offshore from my continent -- and then he nuked my Uranium, Aluminium, etc. So I nuked him in return, and launched my Spaceship anyway.

The second time was Cathy, on a modded Large Emperor Archipelago (@player1 fanatic's C3C-tweak-mod). I was the Celts, and after a relatively slow start (I had no Iron, but all my neighbours did), I conquered my continent and then everyone else's: the Russians were the last surviving AI-Civ, and losing towns fast. I had a bunch of Armies by that point, and had stationed 4 or 5 of them to heal, around (but not in) a relatively recently captured town (originally Dutch, IIRC, but mostly Russian citizens at that point), a long way from the current war-front. She nuked that town, killing most of the Armies. I made peace, then bought Settlers and filled in the gaps between all the captured Russian towns, for 66% land.

 

[revenantlast]

I can recall at least 2 occasions when the AI went first-strike nuclear on me, but both were essentially acts of last-ditch desperation, at a point where my victory was already inevitable.

Thanks for the reply,
so I guess I'm going to have to find a way of putting the pressure on that 'terrorist' civ.
In past mods, I've noticed that a civ that starts without settlers or cities tend to act quiet desperate and attack any city they think they can take, even if that destroys them in the same move when the other AI retaliates. I guess that will be the starting point for my tests.

Funnily enough Carthy was the only time i've ever seen them fire a nuke first. I was the only super power left but had alot of smaller civs left. I had started a war with one of their allies very late in the game. They only had 3 cities and I hadn't really noticed them or the fact that they had all the uranium... as soon as my troops landed my cities where toast but they where destroyed in the next turn anyway so I thought it had something to do with a mutual destruction pact or the fact none else had nukes.
But it seems in your games they played on for a few more moves and you at least also had nukes, is that right?

 

[revenantlast]

Okay so, I've been doing some testing and I've had pretty promising results so far.
I'm not sure if everyone is aware of this, but it seems pretty handy so I'll post my results here in case anyone is interested.

Basically, my test had 2 AI Civs in a locked war and a third 'terrorist' AI civ that didn't have any cities or settlers at the start of the game (but wasn't at war.) I gave them all a few marines (for fodder), ICBMs, tactical nukes and some cruise missiles that I modded to have both the Nuclear weapon and the Hidden nationality flags checked but still with the cruise missile strategy.


On the first turn the terrorist civ immediately launched a cruise missile at the nearest city.

This simultaneously destroyed the terrorist civ but also caused pollution like a nuke.

The two remaining AI civs then immediately fired most of their tactical nukes and cruise missiles at each others cities/units in range.

I clicked through about 30 turns and they seemed to rebuild their forces, attack each other and get drawn into using their nukes again.

I've replayed the test several times with identical results and noticed they seem reluctant to use their ICBM unless they where attacked by nukes in their territory again (it seems like a retaliation weapon)

***EDIT - I'LL UPDATE ALL MY FINDINGS HERE ***
For my next test, I removed all of the Terrorist civ's cruise missiles in range and found some quiet surprising results.
On the first turn (for no reason what so ever) one of the other Civs launched its cruise missile at the terrorist's Marines in range.

This destroyed the terrorist civ (it seems with no city, you are eliminated after you loose 1 unit)

Then in the same turn, the other AI civ declared war on me and emptied its ICBMs on the other AI.

It seems if the AI is given a Cruise missile, with Hidden Nationality and Nuclear Weapon flags checked it will use them indiscriminately, but this allows all other AI to use ANY nuclear weapon!

I genuinely thought it would be harder than this, as I hadn't seen this on the forum, but maybe I missed something, somewhere. Still it's here for reference if any one else likes the idea.

***************************************************************************************************

I will have to do several more test to see whether or not it was just a fluke setup, but so far it seems to do exactly what i wanted. Trigger all out nuclear war without leaving the human player in a diplomatic black hole!

If anyone can see any of you see an obvious flaws to this strategy any advice would be great!

 

[Ozymandias]

Depending upon your desired outcome (i.e., not guaranteeing the Player a victory via this method) I'd suggest having nukes auto-produced, with the auto-producing buildings becoming Obsolete at some time (call the Tech "Nuclear Arms Non-Prolifereration Treaty" or some such.)

 

[revenantlast]

Depending upon your desired outcome (i.e., not guaranteeing the Player a victory via this method) I'd suggest having nukes auto-produced, with the auto-producing buildings becoming Obsolete at some time (call the Tech "Nuclear Arms Non-Prolifereration Treaty" or some such.)

So the reason I want the AI to use nukes is to make it harder for the player. I've messed about with various setting in Steph's editor to create loadable missiles (many of them not actually nukes) and the AI gets how to load them and use them but it will never fire first. This means no matter how many they mount up, as long as i dont fire first, they are all wasted... that's an easy advantage to manipulate in battle, and the only alternative I had was diplomatic suicide in the early game, at a timing of the players choosing. Now i plan to give the modded cruise missile unit to the city-less civ (effectively my scape goat), near a pre-placed AI city. Hopefully it will trigger a nuclear war, allowing the AI to use its missiles as it builds them.

I really like your idea of having them auto-produced...maybe a small wonder for each missile ( eg 'ATGM program') that produces the missiles. Out of interest, would you know if a civ needs the 'Manhattan project' to auto produce nukes?

 

[Ozymandias]

So the reason I want the AI to use nukes is to make it harder for the player. I've messed about with various setting in Steph's editor to create loadable missiles (many of them not actually nukes) and the AI gets how to load them and use them but it will never fire first. This means no matter how many they mount up, as long as i dont fire first, they are all wasted... that's an easy advantage to manipulate in battle, and the only alternative I had was diplomatic suicide in the early game, at a timing of the players choosing. Now i plan to give the modded cruise missile unit to the city-less civ (effectively my scape goat), near a pre-placed AI city. Hopefully it will trigger a nuclear war, allowing the AI to use its missiles as it builds them

I don't know it'll work, but you could try something sneakier

An "auto-producing" Imp/SW/GW will produce a unit when it's first constructed, then (of course) will continue to do so at whatever frequency ( # of turns) you've chosen.

Make 2 auto-producing "nuke machines" with the 1st being a prerequisite for the 2nd. Have the 1st build a nuke with the "Hidden Nationality" attribute,at an interval of every 1000 turn or so (i.e., so basically only one will be built.) Have the 2nd Improvement churns out jut good old fshioned "regular" nukes - and see if anything interesting happens. (And, of coure, please do let the rest of us know!)

I really like your idea of having them auto-produced...maybe a small wonder for each missile ( eg 'ATGM program') that produces the missiles. Out of interest, would you know if a civ needs the 'Manhattan project' to auto produce nukes?

Nope, just a SW?GW (or, with Quntillus' Editor, even an Improvement) simply have the following flag checked:



I will leave you with a benediction from a long forgotten, early Cold War SF short story: "May all your children have one head and two eyes."

 

[revenantlast]

I don't know it'll work, but you could try something sneakier

An "auto-producing" Imp/SW/GW will produce a unit when it's first constructed, then (of course) will continue to do so at whatever frequency ( # of turns) you've chosen.

Make 2 auto-producing "nuke machines" with the 1st being a prerequisite for the 2nd. Have the 1st build a nuke with the "Hidden Nationality" attribute,at an interval of every 1000 turn or so (i.e., so basically only one will be built.) Have the 2nd Improvement churns out jut good old fshioned "regular" nukes - and see if anything interesting happens. (And, of coure, please do let the rest of us know!)

So as far as i can tell (in c3c anyway)...

Imp/SW/GW don't produce units on turn 1 (either pre-placed or built in game.)

Also having an Imp/SW/GW require this SW didn't seem to stop it producing the HM nukes (shame, that would have been handy)

the AI do however use the HN-cruise-missile-nukes it produced, as soon as another civs unit moved into to range (even though this got everyone angry & it was their own territory they where nuking!)

I have also noticed that the AI that gets nuked first seems to always declare war on the human player. I will be testing this further but i am guessing this is because either...
a) the HN nuke causes them to get angry with everyone and it just kept tipping them other the edge with me.
b) they had ICBM's in my tests. So maybe once they could use their nukes, they re-evaluated how big their army was and just thought "to hell them!"
c) its hard coded somewhere to declare war on the human player if they are the first to be nuked (but it doesn't seem to effect other AI's attitudes)

That aside i really like this method, compared to the 'terrorist Civ with pre-placed nuke' idea.
Seems like the best route for me, as it would keep things more random and there is a sense of fairness (different AI seem to use it first in different tests, I think based on how much tech i traded them)
so my plan now is... have the SW produce the HN nukes at regular intervals and make it available to build (cheaply) at a 'WMD testing' tech... then immediately after that, have a really cheap 'missiles' tech that makes the SW obsolete, so all the AI get a shot at causing/falling victim to the nuclear attack (which then means they can actually use their missile units.)

I am also considering making this unit my trade-able unit and have the SW only build-able in your capital, and set all the smaller civs to 'don't build SW'... then smaller nations could buy these 'dirty bombs' from the superpowers who will have moved on to the better long-ranged missile programs available with the 'missiles' tech.
The only down side i can see is finding nukes every time i kill a worker... but you really cant trust anyone these days!

thanks for your help on this, you sparked a lot of knew ideas... and more tests!

 

[Ozymandias]

thanks for your help on this, you sparked a lot of knew ideas... and more tests!

My pleasure

 

[Vuldacon]

revenantlast... Improvements and Wonders will only produce Units at the Number set for them... Not when they are first built.

That said, you can set up when Pre-placed Improvements starts producing with Resources or even for a particular Civ when it is captured. The Improvements can either be Pre-placed where wanted or placed in all Cities by a Great Wonder... then only when the Required Resource is obtained for the Improvements, the Improvements will start producing Units at the Rate you set for them. IF the Improvement has been in a City for the Set time to produce a Unit, when the Required Resource is obtained for the Improvement and or is captured, it will Immediately produce a Unit and continue to do so at the Rate set for it to produce.

Great and Small Wonders differ in that when they are Pre-placed or built, they start any Unit production set for them. The "Trick" for Pre-placed Improvements ( manually or by a Wonder) is because the Improvement requires a Resource to be Built, it is as though it does not exist because it cannot be Built. Then when the Resource is obtained the Improvement can be Built and if it has been in the City for at least as many turns required for it to Auto-produce a Unit, it produces the Unit immediately. So Pre-placed Improvements are there but do not exist

One other point about Pre-placed Improvements is that although they do not exist they are there and the Flags set for them work, Just Not Unit Production.

Another point to keep in mind is that it is the Required Resource for the Improvement Not the Unit that sets the difference for Auto-production. You can have a different Resource required to Build the same Unit directly.

 

[revenantlast]

The "Trick" for Pre-placed Improvements ( manually or by a Wonder) is because the Improvement requires a Resource to be Built, it is as though it does not exist because it cannot be Built. Then when the Resource is obtained the Improvement can be Built and if it has been in the City for at least as many turns required for it to Auto-produce a Unit, it produces the Unit immediately.

That is one pretty handy trick and i will defiantly be implementing this in another mod, does it produce more than one unit if its been built long enough or is it set at 1? either way that is awesome!

Great and Small Wonders differ in that when they are Pre-placed or built, they start any Unit production set for them.

So a pre-placed wonder starts production without access to its resources but a improvement needs its resource, is that right?

I might then, pre-place a nuke producing improvement in selected capitals and have the 'WMD testing' tech make a resources appear so it produces the HN-nukes, the have it go obsolete fairly quickly... I will need to do some more testing!

 

[Vuldacon]

o a pre-placed wonder starts production without access to its resources but a improvement needs its resource, is that right?

No, IF a Resource is Required to Build a Wonder, the Wonder Needs it to Auto-produce a Unit so if the Resource is pillaged the Wonder cannot produce the Unit. You can have a Pre-placed Wonder that requires a Resource to Auto-produce a Unit that will start producing the Unit later when the Resource is Gained.
Wonders build the Unit set for it to Build not change to another Unit.

... and remember that IF you want a Great Wonder to place Improvements in other cities, The Great Wonder Must be built during the Game. Pre-placed Wonders will not place Improvements in other Cities even if flagged to do so.

It will also work very well to Pre-place a Great Wonder in a City and Flag it to be Obsolete with all but the CIV you want to have the Auto-produced Units. When the Desired CIV captures the City, the Great Wonder starts Auto-producing the Units.

Small Wonders will also Auto-produce Units but they will not place Improvements in other Cities.

I like that when a Wonder places any Improvement in other Cities, the Improvement cannot be Bombarded away.

Concerning Pre-placed Wonders: Because Wonders are (programed) normally Built in Game, the Advisor will pop up and state that the Pre-placed Wonder is being Built when the Game Starts. I get around that by setting that the Pre-placed Wonder Requires 10 Armies to be Built. I have No Armies in the Game. That stops the Advisor Statement.

 

[Ozymandias]

This might seem "out of the blue," but it's still been a long time since I've been tinkering with mod mechanics - If a Unit normally requires a Resource to be built, will a GW/SW auto-produce that unit, even if the unit's otherwise requisite resource isn't available?

 

[revenantlast]

yes... in my tests with the small wonders, the cruise missiles were accidentally set to require aluminum and they produced fine without the resource, so as vuldacon said its the wonders resource that is needed.