Can murder ever cause a net positive effect on the world?

[GoodSarmatian]

On top of that, it assumes you know beforehand which people will become brutal dictators and killers. Short of having a time-traveling device, how the hell would any of our great-grand parents or grand-parents have known in the 1920s that Adolf and Joseph were going to grow into Hitler and Stalin?

I think everybody who has read "Mein Kampf" could tell that old Adolf was a serious nut case...

 

[amadeus]

Well, no more than say the Maoist Internationalist Movement. Those guys are, with all due respect to Rick James, super freaks.

There were probably enough people out there with dangerous and/or stupid opinions to keep track of back in the twenties. Just imagine how it is today.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

A lot more than these guys.
I see no outright racism, no superiourity complex and no glorification of war.

 

[pboily]

I think everybody who has read "Mein Kampf" could tell that old Adolf was a serious nut case...

But being a nutcase isn't enough of a reason for getting killed. The question is: did we have any reason to believe Hitler was eventually going to form a government when he wrote Mein Kampf? It seems unreal. But the fact that he got enough support from ordinary Germans brings us back to MobBoss' point: in all likelihood, if you kill him, somebody else takes his place and is just as popular, and history doesn't change that much.

Look at sharpe's link or for something even better known, the KKK. Does anyone actually believe that these "people" will ever be in control? Of course not. But if they do end up in a position of power and start doing the crazy things they'd be likely to do, our descendents will ask: why did we just not kill them right there and then? Couldn't we see they were maniacs? Answer: it's clear they are maniacs, but we just can't imagine a situation in which they are able to do something of the magnitude of what Hitler or Stalin did. So would killing the Grand Dragon (or Great Wizard, or whatever these idiots call their leaders) benefit the species? I happen to think we are better off without their irk. No doubt about that. But maybe the murder brings about publicity or good will or any thing that lead them back to some sort of preminence. Next thing you know they run for office and become a viable third party.

I think MobBoss' point is that you don't know ahead of time if doing the deed might not actually worsen the situation. My point is that not only is this true, but if you decide to keep track and kill every nut job in existence, you are also going to kill a **** load of people who would never have gotten the "chance" to put their craziness in practice. So you need to decide ahead of time which ones are the most-likely-to-be-remembered by our descendants. And that we don't have a way to do so.

At any rate, we cannot go back and kill Hitler and Stalin. So the best we can hope for is that we have learned from our past mistakes, and that Hitler- or Stalin-types don't get a chance to lead.

Personally, I think the West will see a Hitler-type again within 100 years, but we will only be able to identify him once it's too late.

 

[C~G]

So the best we can hope for is that we have learned from our past mistakes, and that Hitler- or Stalin-types don't get a chance to lead.

Yes, let's forget all these murdering thoughts and just gather around to kneel down and pray.

That'll surely help just like it helped all those jews during 1940's.

I rather look for a prey than for a pray.
Catchy phrase that, don't you think?

It's all about "when" these maniacs should be taken down.
I'm not particularly fond of killing people into their cradles either.

 

[pboily]

Yes, let's forget all these murdering thoughts and just gather around to kneel down and pray.
That'll surely help just like it helped all those jews during 1940's.

How is that going to help insure that there are no more Hitler-types? By then, it was much too late...

You are not a Hitler-type. Why is that? Because somebody killed Hitler? or Because someone who believed what Adolf did was wrong taught you that it was wrong, and you agreed/believed him/her?

We can't go back and change the past. The best that we can do is whatever the person who taught you about the Holocaust did. How else are you going to prevent a future Holocaust? One other possibility is that we could just up and kill every crazy nutbag, creating another Holocaust in the process. No, no, we are not without hope as a species, we learn things. (Although I do not feel we have learned enough...)

 

[C~G]

How is that going to help insure that there are no more Hitler-types? By then, it was much too late...

My sarcasm was directed towards the idea that we shouldn't kill anyone but instead just sit and hope for the best.

You are not a Hitler-type. Why is that? Because somebody killed Hitler? or Because someone who believed what he did was wrong taught you that it was wrong, and you agreed/believed him/her?

Because of both probably.
But I would like to think my ideas and "personal education" is result coming from more than one source so the question of such sort is way too philosophical for Internet forum. It would need much more deeper insight.

We can't go back and change the past. The best that we can do is whatever the person who taught you about the Holocaust did. How else are you going to prevent a future Holocaust?

Of course, we cannot change the past.
I'm saying that only way preventing some sort of future Holocaust might be killing someone in power in order to make sure he won't have such chance as Hitler did.

One other possibility is that we could just up and kill every crazy nutbag, creating another Holocaust in the process. No, no, we are not without hope as a species, we learn things. (Although I do not feel we have learned enough...)

I believe that killing one might save many other people. I'm not trying to support such view which would make people running amok killing everything that could be considered as madman.
What comes to hope you seem to be certain that future is always brighter than the past. Don't count too much into such thought.

Sitting on your laurels and just telling what is wrong won't help always.
Times do change, my friend.

 

[pboily]

Times do change, my friend.

Indeed. I happen to think they change for the better...

(Even though I've predicted the rise of another Hitler in the West within 100 years)