Can a Marxist revolutionary get elected president and sort out the economy?

[Voidwalkin]

That may be, but even if it is the goal of Marxism per se, that's not necessarily a predictor of behavior. In my view, all political groups fundamentally behave the same way, according to the same set of rules, and justify their social hierarchy and overall existence in terms of an ideology. The reality produces the ideology, that is, as the ideology is always that which justifies the reality.

Generally, yeah.

Snip, inheritance of Christianity

Sure. Cultivation of the mind. The Cicero thing.

The fatal flaw with Marxism is that it calls for dictatorship as necessary in the transition to communism. That notion, based on the writing, cultivates the mind. Even if a political leader is shaped by other intellectual, cultural and traditional beliefs and values, the seeds are planted. To believe that they won't grow isn't unwise. It's not like I think a Sri Lankan Marxist is gonna do some wild horsehocky, because the weight of powers opposed to that would unleash all manner of dirty tricks to sabotage that leaders political fortunes. Avoidance of which will be directing his efforts down less controversial paths.

But I'd have to be naive to think it's impossible that the seeds planted can't grow. It's totally plausible that any Marxist leader would be happy to build some sort of ideological counter-hegemony. They may similarly be thrilled to advance that through more direct action.

If in the process democracy is lost that'd be unideal. More below.

So, in my view, the only reason one would care about "democracy" and not having a "dictatorship" is because one's masters have them believing that democracy protects their rights, as a free man, property owner, professional, hustler, whatever, and that dictators will take that away by denying them their freedom to participate in a system that, individually, they're essentially a meaningless part of unless they have wealth to throw around. Some vague belief in the mob is exactly what always gets then threatened by the exact people who hold the reins of democratic states. So in a very real sense, I don't understand why what you're saying matters at all. Personally, I think the absolute best chance an individual has for "freedom" is to be a decision maker and not a problem taker. And that's exactly the same in any communist system, right down to the snakes in government as well as private enterprise.

What it does do is subject leaders to a moral fitness test regularly.

If morality is understood to be a rough consensus of best practices, reactive to economic, environmental and other stimuli, the leader elected will at the least reflect the population. There is the protection of what are agreed to be rights in that, yeah. Is that absolute? Well, no, of course not. Civilization itself is an imposition you effectively don't have the right to refuse nor withdraw from... it's serfdom-lite, inherently.

Is morality perfectly adaptive? Well, no, again. Tradition bias is there. The cultural inheritance is often outdated in the contemporary world. Long term planning is sorta handicapped as people seem to respond to their short term interest(though, compounding short term advantages is a valid growth strategy).

Does it make a better pathfinder than the Marxist doctrine? Well, yeah, I think. Marx misread his times. When power is the tool of choice to create or more accurately, carve, new culture out from old, as encouraged by the text of Marx, it frequently breaks too far too fast from the sensibilities of the population. It collapses into cynicism and distrust as a consequence.

The more successful Marxist states note that. The temptation is always there to push towards the goal regardless of public opinion, though, because Marx planted the seed that that was necessary, thus, the frequent failures.

I sometimes think that Marx is an energy vampire. An anchor that effectively channels the most egalitarian thinkers into a fundamentally flawed ideology, but prominent enough in profile to keep more able thought in the shade, unable to get enough sun to grow or develop. Some other theorist, without that dictatorship angle, could actually create a counter-hegemony, Marxist thought cannot.

 

[Zardnaar]

It’s no different than leftist and commies placing the blame of all of our economic and social ills and woes on “capitalism”.

Alot if it is Marxism does a decent diagnosis. Ironically even Adam Smith agreed with some of Marx. The cure is wrong at least between the theory and attempts to replicate it.

The best we have achieved (at least since we invented agriculture) is social democracy in pre 1984 NZ and Scandinavia.

You still have to produce food and distribute it or import if you cant.

 

[Moriarte]

Ironically even Adam Smith agreed with some of Marx.

But then he got drunk and forgot it.

 

[Gorbles]

Maybe I didn't read into these posts well enough, but I don't see anything there in terms of how Marxism can help in this case and what practical steps it would lead to that would differ from ones inspired by a non-Marxist approach.

I would agree that you didn't read into the posts well enough, given that one describes the backstory to the place in question and Samson's coverage of current events shows a Marxist candidate getting the vote.

Actions speak louder than words, right? I'm not here to debate theory with a bunch of posters who don't want to ever accept that Marxist ideas might be successful in the grand old marketplace of ideas. That's a non-starter (see GenMarshall and Zardnaar's jabs throughout).

We have a real-world example of someone getting voted in, correct? We also know enough of the history to know this isn’t an isolated case. That in of itself is a part of the answer to Samson's question.

Now all we have to do is suspend individual bias a bit (this is why I haven't been derailing the thread r.e. capitalism or any other such tangent) and keep up with the coverage.

It’s no different than leftist and commies placing the blame of all of our economic and social ills and woes on “capitalism”.

"I've changed", he says as he trots out the same tired "leftists and commies blame did something I don't agree with" line.

 

[Zardnaar]

I would agree that you didn't read into the posts well enough, given that one describes the backstory to the place in question and Samson's coverage of current events shows a Marxist candidate getting the vote.

Actions speak louder than words, right? I'm not here to debate theory with a bunch of posters who don't want to ever accept that Marxist ideas might be successful in the grand old marketplace of ideas. That's a non-starter (see GenMarshall and Zardnaar's jabs throughout).

We have a real-world example of someone getting voted in, correct? We also know enough of the history to know this isn’t an isolated case. That in of itself is a part of the answer to Samson's question.

Now all we have to do is suspend individual bias a bit (this is why I haven't been derailing the thread r.e. capitalism or any other such tangent) and keep up with the coverage.


"I've changed", he says as he trots out the same tired "leftists and commies blame did something I don't agree with" line.

Communist being voted in isn't an issue. Letting themselves be voted out is. Benefit of the doubt in this case.

Other communists in the former Soviet block have left office when voted out.

 

[Gorbles]

Communist being voted in isn't an issue. Letting themselves be voted out is. Benefit of the doubt in this case.

Plenty of parties and ideologies have demonstrated issues in letting themselves be voted out. But that isn't the thread topic, and a Marxist democratic candidate isn't a Communist leaving office. Apples and oranges.

 

[amadeus]

When are we going to get to the boring parts? I tried posting about it before!

 

[Samson]

Maybe I didn't read into these posts well enough, but I don't see anything there in terms of how Marxism can help in this case and what practical steps it would lead to that would differ from ones inspired by a non-Marxist approach.

I would agree that the concrete details of his platform is generally missing from the english language media I consume. I found this on reuters that is better than most, and has these lines:

Dissanayake ran as the candidate for the National People's Power (NPP) alliance, which includes his Janatha Vimukhti Peremuna (JVP) party that traditionally championed Marxist economic policies centred on protectionism and state intervention.

Dissanayake could seek changes to the bondholder deal. He has also promised to seek amendments to taxation goals under the IMF programme but has committed to repaying debt.

Dissanayake said he will have discussions with the IMF to adjust their programme and reduce taxes and free up public revenue for tax relief and investment. He has pledged to remove VAT on some health, education and food items. But the measures could affect fiscal deficit targets set under the IMF deal.

Dissanayake has promised to revamp state companies to make them more profitable, create 20,000 new teaching jobs, and create more opportunities in key sectors such as tourism. He has also pledged to expand existing welfare schemes.

 

[Zardnaar]

I would agree that the concrete details of his platform is generally missing from the english language media I consume. I found this on reuters that is better than most, and has these lines:

Dissanayake ran as the candidate for the National People's Power (NPP) alliance, which includes his Janatha Vimukhti Peremuna (JVP) party that traditionally championed Marxist economic policies centred on protectionism and state intervention.

Dissanayake could seek changes to the bondholder deal. He has also promised to seek amendments to taxation goals under the IMF programme but has committed to repaying debt.

Dissanayake said he will have discussions with the IMF to adjust their programme and reduce taxes and free up public revenue for tax relief and investment. He has pledged to remove VAT on some health, education and food items. But the measures could affect fiscal deficit targets set under the IMF deal.

Dissanayake has promised to revamp state companies to make them more profitable, create 20,000 new teaching jobs, and create more opportunities in key sectors such as tourism. He has also pledged to expand existing welfare schemes.

Not bad ideas. He's inheriting a lot of debt from predecessors but not paying debts usually worse.

 

[GenMarshall]

Alot if it is Marxism does a decent diagnosis. Ironically even Adam Smith agreed with some of Marx. The cure is wrong at least between the theory and attempts to replicate it.

I’ve got a bunch of backlogs on Wisecrack that I want to watch that delves into it (and perhaps my only resource). I’ve only watch a segment on how they debunked Harris being a Marxist (and that’s a topic for another thread) that somewhat perked my curiosity on its topic.

Right now I’m in the same boat as Warpus, skeptical about what good Marxism would bring when it has negative baggage associated with it (see: USSR and the Western Bloc, China). So far, haven’t seen any good examples of Marxist parties not devolving into totalitarianism and authoritarianism.

 

[Zardnaar]

I’ve got a bunch of backlogs on Wisecrack that I want to watch that delves into it (and perhaps my only resource). I’ve only watch a segment on how they debunked Harris being a Marxist (and that’s a topic for another thread) that somewhat perked my curiosity on its topic.

Right now I’m in the same boat as Warpus, skeptical about what good Marxism would bring when it has negative baggage associated with it (see: USSR and the Western Bloc, China). So far, haven’t seen any good examples of Marxist parties not devolving into totalitarianism and authoritarianism.

Well that's the problem with Marxism as attempted and no one's really solved it yet. Then they normally backtrack to some form of authoritarian state capitalism if the regime survives (eg Cuba, China, Vietnam).

In Sri Lankas case I stopped paying attention around 2021. One of my neighbour's kids is over there and he says it's relatively good atm apparently. Covid screwed them along with a previous corrupt idiot.

 

[Sarin]

Well that's the problem with Marxism as attempted and no one's really solved it yet. Then they normally backtrack to some form of authoritarian state capitalism if the regime survives (eg Cuba, China, Vietnam).

In Sri Lankas case I stopped paying attention around 2021. One of my neighbour's kids is over there and he says it's relatively good atm apparently. Covid screwed them along with a previous corrupt idiot.

That is because Marxism isn't an ideology that leads to communism, it's "how to use the idea of communism to sucker people into following your dictatorship" ideology.

 

[Zardnaar]

That is because Marxism isn't an ideology that leads to communism, it's "how to use the idea of communism to sucker people into following your dictatorship" ideology.

Marx was probably genuine in his beliefs and a lot of his criticisms at the time are failt on point. Charles Dickens gives an idea what conditions were like.

He was a philosopher though with no idea of practical economics or a politician with any idea on how to gain power or wield it.

Also didn't gave a great grasp on the human condition.

It's magic money beans for people though as you can project whatever you like on it abd blame capitalists and wreckers when things inevitably go tits up.

If you need to figure out how things actually work go talk to a farmer and a truck driver first step.

 

[Sarin]

Max was probably genuine in his beliefs and a lot of his criticisms at the time are failt on point. Charles Dickens gives an idea what conditions were like.

He was a philosopher though with no idea of practical economics or a politician with any idea on how to gain power or wield it.

Also didn't gave a great grasp on the human condition.

It's magic money beats fir people though as you xan project whatever you like on it abd blame capitalists and wreckers when things inevitably go tits up.

If you need to figure out how things actually work go talk to a farmer and a truck driver first step.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of doubt, because he never really tried implementing his ideas.

But it's telling that all it took was addition of specific leadership body to the nebulous idea of "worker's revolution" to make it lead inevitably into dictatorship.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm willing to give him the benefit of doubt, because he never really tried implementing his ideas.

But it's telling that all it took was addition of specific leadership body to the nebulous idea of "worker's revolution" to make it lead inevitably into dictatorship.

Yep he was also writing in a time where mass media was in its infancy.

An absolute monarch in his time had a fraction of the power and influence the 20th century nutters had eg Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot.

Marx was a product of his environment. He never got to see the progress of the 20th century.

 

[GenMarshall]

Yep he was also writing in a time where mass media was in its infancy.

Not to mention the height of the Industrial Revolution where there weren’t as much labor rights and union organizations.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not to mention the height of the Industrial Revolution where there weren’t as much labor rights and union organizations.

Yeah Marx writing that at the time makes a lot of sense.

 

[Samson]

Sri Lanka's Newly-Elected President Dissolves Parliament, Calls Snap Polls On November 14

In one of the his first significant moves as Sri Lanka's newly-elected President, leftist leader Anura Kumara Dissanayake today dissolved the country's Parliament and called for snap polls within one month. The aim behind the move is for the new leader to follow-up on his electoral promise of bringing change in Sri Lanka's decades-old rule by political families.

The dissolution of Sri Lanka's Parliament will be effective midnight tonight and the fresh elections will be held on November 14, a special gazette notification said. The last time that Sri Lanka's Parliament was convened was back in August 2020. The term, though in place till August 2025, comes to an end tonight - 11 months ahead of schedule.

 

[Hygro]

…of the subsequent reaction.

There I finished it for you.

why was bernie14 the only one to like my dig at Thatcher?

 

[Senethro]

why was bernie14 the only one to like my dig at Thatcher?

The curse of the last post on a page got you. Least read, and frequently skipped if its so short as to show the page buttons without scrolling past it.

The skillful poster looks to the postID# on the right, and holds his strike for maximum effect.