Can you help with notes on this translation? (ideas to make it more natural)

[Kyriakos]

I decided to translate a very small bit of mine published (not one of the printed stories, this one exists just online) a while back. My English (moreso when i am translating some literature, and even moreso if that is my own) is not natural, so i thought of asking if anyone here wants to offer some ideas for changing bits of the text.

It is a small text, so you might find the time to have a look. Thanks in advance

Text follows:

The stillness of Sisyphus

Most people have the belief that Sisyphus was perpetually experiencing the same state, each time reaching near its limit, and then realizing once more that nothing had changed in regards to what could only bring about the ending of the unnatural martyrdom. But we have to suppose that Sisyphus himself was not thinking of his position in this manner, and some thoughts come to our aid in this conclusion:
Had Sisyphus been thinking that his endeavors were just repetitive -either in relation to their end result, or to the starting point they supposedly brought back to- then it would make more sense to follow that since he would have also accepted that his punishment was inescapable he would therefore no longer be employed in rising the rock to the summit it needed to reach so that all would change, and would instead direct his movements to a corner, and pretty soon he could even be entirely indifferent to that rock.
That his was the view in which the rock truly could be placed at the right position, and this would happen by his own conscious work, and, finally, only thus will the passing of the struggle against the old hurdle become a reality, should be deemed as a given- at least as long as one accepts that a mere pretension of his that he cares about the rock while he really doesn’t at all, couldn't have seemed to him as being a different road to his freedom. This means, in other words, that he always firmly trusted in the sense of freedom being only the potential result of his struggle with the rock.

So I am of the view that Sisyphus was calculating that no new course of his was identical to any previous one. I think that, from his point of view, the general likeness which any rise to that place, with any of its breaks, any thoughts or hesitations appearing during it, ultimately any focused will to also factor in what undeniably was a clear error in the previous rises and one which now can be corrected, was playing a far more important role for him than any illusion which had simply been strengthened proportionally to his disparaging inability to provide his self with another solution.
I think, therefore, that Sisyphus, during all of his uphill courses, was never stopping to compute the past mistakes, always had something innovative to add to any new attempt, and in that always was noticing clear differences between the last one and any previous to it.
If he indeed had any sort of pain due to all that, the pain clearly had been the result of his absolute conclusion about his rising course, a conclusion far more permanent than anything else there: that such was the multitude of changes between any one course and all the previous and future ones that it seemed almost impossible for him to ever complete even a representative number of any given, generally defined, clearly distinct variety of them...

In this state that he was found in it may have not occurred to him that,despite the infinitesimal possibility of such a thing happening, had he once managed to see the rock standing still even after he had ceased supporting it, the sudden realization that he was now allowed to venture out of that place could in turn, for the very first time, force him to remain still.

 

[Synobun]

I've found that the biggest issue for non-English speakers is that even when they are fluent in the language, they often opt to use more complicated or advanced words when they're not needed and thus cloud the meaning of what they're trying to say. Much like the English scientists who on purposely use technical terms and then when the other person is confused they scoff and go, "Well, I guess it takes a scientist to understand!"

This sentence, for example:

"I think that, from his point of view, the general likeness which any rise to that place, with any of its breaks, any thoughts or hesitations appearing during it, ultimately any focused will to also factor in what undeniably was a clear error in the previous rises and one which now can be corrected, was playing a far more important role for him than any illusion which had simply been strengthened proportionally to his disparaging inability to provide his self with another solution."

Besides the fact that is a singular run-on sentence, what exactly is going on in it? You're using words but they don't seem to be meaning anything. ... which had simply been strengthened proportionally to his disparaging inability? What is that supposed to mean?

English is more than just using advanced words. Most of the big-time English authors will tell everyone that simple language is superior to advanced language because there's no point in making something that can be described in 10 easy words be described in 200 advanced words.

 

[Kyriakos]

I meant that it was becoming larger in direct analogy to something else getting smaller (the view was gaining momentum when his despair was all the more preventing him from finding any other solution).

I was not sure if the translation of "in direct analogy"(in the Greek phrase i use in the original) would be "(...) proportionally to". It is one of the points i had in mind when posting this for help

PS: I entirely agree about not being good to use complicated terms, but i did not think i did (well, in the original anyway).

 

[Takhisis]

I've marked some of the more obvious stuff.

Most people have the belief believe that Sisyphus was perpetually continually experiencing the same state, each time reaching near its limit, and then realizing once more that nothing had changed in regards to what could only bring about the ending of the unnatural martyrdom needs rewriting. But we have to suppose that Sisyphus himself was did not thinking of his position in this manner, and some thoughts come to our aid in this conclusion: <--?????
Had Sisyphus been thinking thought that his endeavors were just repetitive -either in relation to their end result, or to the starting point they supposedly brought him back to- then it would make more sense to follow that since he would have also accepted that his punishment was inescapable he would therefore no longer be employed in rising climbing the rock to the summit it needed to reach so that all would change, and would instead direct his movements to a corner, and pretty soon he could even be entirely indifferent to that rock.
That his was the view in which the rock truly could be placed at the right position, and this would happen by his own conscious work, and, finally, only thus will the passing of the struggle against the old hurdle become a reality, <- what? should be deemed as a given- at least as long as one accepts that a mere pretension of his that he cares about the rock while he really doesn’t at all, couldn't have seemed to him as being a different road to his freedom. This means, in other words, that he always firmly trusted in the sense feeling? of freedom being only the potential result of his struggle with <-- I don't like that the rock.

So I am of the view think that Sisyphus was calculating that no new course of his was identical to any previous one. I think that, from his point of view, the general likeness which any rise to that place, with any of its breaks, any thoughts or hesitations appearing during it, ultimately any focused will to also factor in what undeniably was a clear error in the previous rises and one which now can be corrected, was playing a far more important role for him than any illusion which had simply been strengthened proportionally to his disparaging inability to provide his self with another solution.
So I think, therefore, that Sisyphus, during all of his uphill courses, was never stopping stopped to compute the past mistakes, always had something innovative to add to any new attempt, and in that ??? always was noticing clear differences between the last one and any previous to it.
If he indeed had felt any sort of pain due to all that, the pain clearly had been the result of his absolute conclusion about his rising course ?, a conclusion far more permanent than anything else there: that such was the multitude of changes between any one course and all the previous and future ones that it seemed almost impossible for him to ever complete even a representative number of any given, generally defined, clearly distinct variety of them...

In this state that he was found in it may have not occurred to him that,despite the infinitesimal <-minuscule, minimal possibility of such a thing happening, had he once managed to see the rock standing still even after he had ceased supporting it <-- too archaic, the sudden realization that he was now allowed to venture out of that place could in turn, for the very first time, force him to remain still.​

In general you're overlaying the structure of the original Greek with English words instead of rewriting it in the latter language. It's also in too high a register, so that it sounds a bit archaic, almost as if you were using Katharevousa.

Translation is a very difficult craft, it takes years. You have to rewrite in the new language, not copy, or else you'll get a series of calques.

 

[Kyriakos]

What? Use English as an actual language and not some projection of the text in Greek?

^There go my noble impatient aspirations for having my work soon/readily published in English :/

 

[Flying Pig]

If I understand you correctly, this is a thread asking about English style rather than translation of Greek per se. In which case, I would have a few general observations. Good style, in general, is a question of efficiency - you want the reader to be able to understand what you're trying to say on first reading, without having to go back over it to work out what you mean. The best prose expresses complicated ideas in simple language, in my view. A few general ideas that I try to use in my own writing:

• Omit needless words. 'Very' is the prime offender here; I try never to use it.
• Try to keep your average sentence length short, around 16 words or so.
• Simplify your vocabulary: try to use monosyllables as much as possible, and Anglo-Saxon rather than Latinate words. I understand that the latter is particularly harsh on somebody translating from Greek!
• I find in general that I write most simply about subjects that I understand most clearly, with almost no variation for how complicated the subject actually is.

My inclination is that you're writing about literature, in which case you would usually use the present tense - 'Sisyphus calculates that' - unless placing that event chronologically before other events in the narrative.

So I am of the view that Sisyphus was calculating that no new course of his was identical to any previous one. I think that, from his point of view, the general likeness which any rise to that place, with any of its breaks, any thoughts or hesitations appearing during it, ultimately any focused will to also factor in what undeniably was a clear error in the previous rises and one which now can be corrected, was playing a far more important role for him than any illusion which had simply been strengthened proportionally to his disparaging inability to provide his self with another solution.
I think, therefore, that Sisyphus, during all of his uphill courses, was never stopping to compute the past mistakes, always had something innovative to add to any new attempt, and in that always was noticing clear differences between the last one and any previous to it.
If he indeed had any sort of pain due to all that, the pain clearly had been the result of his absolute conclusion about his rising course, a conclusion far more permanent than anything else there: that such was the multitude of changes between any one course and all the previous and future ones that it seemed almost impossible for him to ever complete even a representative number of any given, generally defined, clearly distinct variety of them...

So, I believe that Sisyphus thought that no two of his ascents were the same. Despite his former delusions brought on by his inability to control his fate, I believe that he realised his past errors and was determined to correct them [I’m not really sure what this part means].
I think, therefore, that Sisyphus never stopped, while struggling up the hill, to think about his previous mistakes. On the contrary, each time he tried something new, always noticing something which he had done differently on the previous ascent compared with those before it.
If this caused him pain, then that pain clearly came from his absolute certainty that he could never finish his climb. This belief must have felt far surer than anything else in his mind, for, with each of his attempts on the mountain, the path changed so greatly that he felt it impossible ever to make enough changes of his own to compensate for it.

 

[Kyriakos]

Thanks

A bit ominous, though, that even your translation of my 'nearly non-english translation', already has lost most of the meaning, or (even more crucially) altered the direction meant in other parts of it for the full 180 degrees

 

[Flying Pig]

To be honest, I had to make a best guess at what it means. I noticed that your English on the forum is many times better and easier to understand than that - I wonder if it might be worth writing out in your own words what the passage actually means, in English, before tackling the translation. I think, by and large, I could get the vague meaning - though perhaps not - but for maybe half of it I wasn't sure exactly what the words were trying to convey.

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes, i have been told so for my "english translation" many times (although at other times native english speakers seem to like the text, but i only showed this small bit to a few, anyway). In the original Greek, though, "a miracle happens" and everything is clear

Well, in reality the original Greek (as Takhi suspected/suggested) pretty much has this form, but there it is the normal form and sentence structure. I never use strange terms cause the meaning would be utterly lost in the forking paths of the sentences..

 

[Flying Pig]

Yes, it's not so much the form that's the problem - I suspect that you've used almost-right translations for a lot of the words, which don't quite work in that particular order in English. It seems that you've used 'any', for example, to translate a word which means something quite different. In English, it only means 'at all', so:

which any rise to that place, with any of its breaks, any thoughts or hesitations appearing during it, ultimately any focused will

doesn't quite work.

 

[Kyriakos]

Oh, i did not recall that :/ Indeed the term(s) in Greek would be some variations of "kathe", which is closer to "every"/"every one"/"all".