Can't keep up on King

b7fanatix

Warlord
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
178
I usually go with Rome, on a Standard size map with 8 Civs and No City States.

I hand pick some interesting neighbours, China, Germany, Songhai, Dido, Atilla, Monty and Japan. However, on Prince this is a Cakewalk, but I've just finished two games on King and it's been a different matter altogether.

In both games Germany became a runaway success, with 15 Cities and 9 puppets. From the 1500s or so they were a full era ahead in tech. In 1785 they already had WW1 era aircraft, and got their rocket away in 1954.

I'm assuming the huge city count = huge pop = high science. Checking the end of game demographics, Bismark had 99% literacy (I had 90%), and 40 million vs my 30 million pop.

Things started pretty well. I built the Great Library in turn 47, my second city and the National College were founded in the 60s or so. Then i had Atilla DoW at turn 68, followed by Askia in turn 73. It was a close run thing and i had to endure 10 turns of Atilla pillaging all my tile improvements.

I had tried to be disciplined about building improvements, assigning a low priority to culture and none to religion. I used to go tradition but in this game i tried to play "wider", filling out the Liberty tree then taking two from Tradition before moving into Rationalism. I bought two Settlers and used my Liberty freebie to found four cities, but that really seems like all i can manage in the Medieval era. For one, i was getting into negative happiness despite getting quite lucky with all the luxuries. By the Renaissance era, i've got more Happiness buildings researched and would have been able to expand a bit more.

Unfortunately, the cityspam of the AIs had taken all the available land. In retrospect, i should have started exploring the seas at this point, there was a large island off the coast i was able to found another two cities on in the 1800s.

Bismark ended up wiping out Atilla and Askia. Dido eliminated Japan, then was herself reduced to a single city in the 1800s by Bismark attacking with rocket artillery etc. He then began plotting against Monty, but decided to attack me instead, probably because i'd started constructing a rocket. He never advanced more than a tile or two inside my border, despite demanding my complete capitulation at the negotiating table, but beat me to the launch of the ship by 20 turns or so.

Do you think the decision to play with 0 city states helped the AI?
 
no CS's hurt you more than it hurt the AI. and you went to a level that is the largest jump in difficulty among the other jumps.
 
I would say Emperor to Immortal is the biggest jump. However not having city states at all is just a mistake. The way the game mechanics work and gives bonuses to the AI you really want all the tools at your disposal for keeping things even. CS help with this.
 
Emperor to Immortal is the second biggest jump; second only to Immortal to Deity.

However you are much better off trimming city state ratio down to 1 :1 ratio than eliminating them entirely.
 
:lol: 1954 rockets is not "runaway" :lol: that's super slow rockets.
Not completing tradition is really bad. REALLY bad. (no bonus growth and free aqueduct).
It seems your GL was not worth it... (how many turns did you spend?)

And I don't think a rush around turn 60 on King is that scary... since AIs don't start with a free settler the number of units they can manage around that time would probably not be that high.

And for some reason your "king" doesn't sound like the "king" I know. On king culture AND religion AND science are all simultaneously possible; there was no reason to ignore any of them.

And on king, you can win with one city, maybe two. If there aren't any good expansion spots, don't even bother expanding.

If you could post the save file... I'm curious what size your capitol is and if you've managed to grow it.
 
I've got 3 saves from this game. 600AD, turn 91, having just turned that early two-team attack. Two cities, GL and NC. Everything is burning :sad:

1785 gives you an idea of how the game progressed, but too late to turn things round IMHO. I've founded the extra cities on that large island to the east, but i should have done that a few centuries ago. Germany becoming a runaway.

I started another game under same conditions, but got a jungle start. Two teamed by Bismark and Atilla on turn 100. I have three cities but end up getting wiped out, kept reloading but nothing i do changes the outcome. I guess you could take the "Unconditional surrender" deal from one of those scumbags, give up everything except your capitol and hope to fight off the other, but i don't see what that would achieve.

Not sure what's the point in having Atilla the Hun offer you a deal that "forestalls your utter annihilation"? He can just wipe you out anyway, so why not just get on with it. Even if you take that offer, you'll be so reduced that he'll just attack you again when the peace treaty expires, and finish you off. Rage quit time!
 

Attachments

I loaded your save games, shame it is G&K, this would make another great "how to save your game video." I might still go ahead and record one anyway, because it is easier to show what is wrong rather than make a huge wall of text.

I understand the urge to hand select all the warmonger civs, it certainly can make for a fun game. I also understand the urge to go liberty for a change and go wide. Both of these things are laudable, fun, and make you a better player if you can get through the game.

One of the key aspects to playing civ, is playing a game where each thing you do is consistent with every thing else you do. If you can just get to the point where the each tech is consistent with each building or policy, then you will double the quality of your game. So at the most basic level for this game, consistency is going to war because you hand selected all the warmonger civs. I played a few turns ahead and was able to capture Askia's capitol on T121 after razing Tombouctu. Attila is the next clear target because he is an early warmonger, and his cap is very close.
All I did was to take manual control of your cities, build 2 horsemen, buy a 4th CB and go take his cities - he only has a few crappy units. I built a 5th CB to go hunt down the local barb camps.

Things that are very wrong:
no scouts. You must scout even when you know all the civs and there are no CS's. I will not list all the reasons for scouting, but the single most important reason for this game is that need to know where all the capitols are (because you hand selected a war map), and good scouting is essential for playing wide. A good liberty starting BO is scout, monument, scout, or monument, 2 scouts. Then follow up with 3 to 4 archers then the pyramids.

The Great Library. Just do not build it, or build in an expo. This wonder is a game killer, I will not go into all the reason why - it is simply a barrier to better play.

Default city focus. At the very least, put your city on food focus, then manually select hammer tiles once your reach about 5 pop. With Liberty, you need to pay close attention to city size because Liberty sucks for happiness and gold.

City placement. Cumae gives you nothing, it should have been settled east of the salt. Neapolis is even worse, This should have been settled on the Uranium. So your 3rd and 4th cities gave you nothing but a drain on your empire. Ravenna should not have been settled at all, Arretium should have been settled on the coal.

Mixing Liberty and Tradition, and synergy between SP's and the rest of the game. Secularism is arguably the single most powerful SP you can take, but you are running almost no specialists so the policy is wasted. Had you not opened tradition, you would be 4 deep into rationalism and in position to take the finisher for 2 well timed free techs. This ties back into city management, you need some decent pop to run the specialists and you do not have the pop for it. This also ties back into good scouting. You build the PT, and are ready to take Scientific Revolution on T267, but you have met no one for RA's making the whole thing a waste of hammers, beakers, and culture. You would have done better at this point running either into the Industrial tree's or down Commerce.

The tech path on T267 shows a good warmonger path, Biology into Flight, and a run to Artillery and Bombers. There are two big problems though. This is something like 50 to 100 turns late to be on this path, you should be done with Rocketry by this time. The reason you are not done with rocketry is no city management, and not enough specialists. You are not warmongering, if you are taking a warmonger tech path, then get out there and conquer.
 
I loaded this up and played through a few turns during a lunch break. I have never played a game without city states, and this was hard, even for king (I am an immortal player).

You had a good start, except I don't know why you were in a war with Songhai. The first thing I did was built 2 scouts. I settled your 3rd city next to the mountain (for an observatory) and near the wonder (I got faith from wonder pantheon). I found the other civs by T106 and started trading with them:

Spoiler :
2013-10-21_00001.jpg


You are also right that Germany was becoming a quick runaway. He settled like a dozen cities in my game and was killing Songhai. By the time I was able to get some infrastructure built and take out Atilla, he was firmly entrenched in a lot of rough terrain and with landsch-whatevers.

I attacked Frankfurt first with Pikes and Trebs, but he built walls and held me off. So I turtled for about 50 turns and teched to dynamite. Then I just rolled up to Berlin and took it.

My :c5science: is pretty abysmal. I had to build wonders and happiness buildings to keep growing, and I simply could not keep up strong growth without any CS allies. I also admit I was very rusty because I've been playing BNW and not G&K. I think I got dynamite about T210.

It's now T231.

Spoiler :
2013-10-21_00002.jpg


The game will probably be over in less than 50 turns. Berlin has fallen, Germany's other cities are falling and no one has artillery but me. The only real challenge size-wise is Monty, and he did not have writing until T110.
 
I started another game under same conditions, but got a jungle start. Two teamed by Bismark and Atilla on turn 100. I have three cities but end up getting wiped out, kept reloading but nothing i do changes the outcome. I guess you could take the "Unconditional surrender" deal from one of those scumbags, give up everything except your capitol and hope to fight off the other, but i don't see what that would achieve.

Not sure what's the point in having Atilla the Hun offer you a deal that "forestalls your utter annihilation"? He can just wipe you out anyway, so why not just get on with it. Even if you take that offer, you'll be so reduced that he'll just attack you again when the peace treaty expires, and finish you off. Rage quit time!

If you get yourself in a pickle where no matter what you do they will take the city, fight till one turn before capture, then sell it to someone you don't mind taking it back from later. It will give you a nice boost allowing to rush walls or units and repel the invasion at next city or even better cap. It also preserves the population and buildings. Then Regroup and counterattack. One the time comes to bet the city back, bypass it, go for the cap and get it intact in peace deal ;)
 
Played it from your first save...
First of all I have some comments: (pls don't take this the wrong way)
You somehow managed to work your tiles even worse than default focus (meaning the AI would've worked a better combination than you did) You have river floodplains tiles that are just tasty.
You had tech lead, which was good, and could make peace with Askia straight away.
First thing I did was use the extra copper copy to redirect Atilla towards Askia.
On such a start, ignoring religion is stupid, esp on King. Oracle'd liberty finisher on GE and I hammered Hagia right away. Desert Folklore + Divine Inspiration + Petra afterwards. Shame Monty took Great Wall. (and next time if you wanna beeline a wonder on GnK please do beeline hanging gardens instead) Took holy warriors as my 2nd belief, and empire is now completely safe with the size of your fpt, and Petra'd Rome can churn out a CB in 2-3 turns if you must. From here you could pretty much play any way you want and win. But next time, please do open tradition (it is plain better); going without aqueducts and food and growth bonuses for your capitol is very bad early on. You had a great desert folklore start but ignored religion when holy warriors would've saved you plenty of hammers, think a single shrine for those 3 CB.

You also needed to get engineering tech for aqueducts ASAP. Your tech path seemed rather weird TBH. If you are near warmongers, a quick beeline to great wall is also very good on emperor and below.


Spoiler :
6F02D4789826F1D5DA3352B0BA33D287DBCE848F

Atilla came at me again but faith bought CBs to XBs lead to a resounding victory; he capitulated, forking over huge gold. I did not even build a single unit, just bought them. Of course I could've wiped him and Askia out right away but what kind of tyrannical ruler would I be if my empire is very unhappy? (but ya know... if you had gone tradition instead I would've saved around 10+ unhappiness just from my cap alone and would've gone for the kill)
Spoiler :
8A01F7D6B0A0B683CC183A3644C8D9750C70D7D7


I played for peaceful CV, so I took piety instead of rationalism and only 3 cities. Anyway, the other religions didn't stand a chance. Great Mosque, Notre Dame, Sistine, etc... managed so many wonders I couldn't count. Fpt reaching high heavens. Happiness is more of a concern without any CS so I felt I didn't really need to expand... and once I got happiness going from theatres and whatnot I didn't feel like I needed to settle my 4th.
Spoiler :
BEFAF9964BEE858A26E3C38BC8BF88571FF2A586


Heaven on earth has arrived! (900+ cpt without any CS? Yeowch!) :lol: My landmarks are so beautiful aren't they...
Tradition x5 Liberty x5 Piety x5 Commerce x5 Freedom x5 and honor opener while UP was building :p
Spoiler :
C28C0D5F41BA4EA03AD2E9FFBB099037F722DA76


How good was religion you ask? 600+ followers in other civs is your answer. Imagine if I had gone tithe....
Spoiler :
FB7292DEC9B49901A59D5603F83B76422B430676


Lastly, if you surround your friend's (Askia's) cities with your own units having open borders, Bissy can't do anything, just run around and around.
You can play this for domination too, just get ceremonial burial or whatever the +happiness founder bonus is and desert folklore, and go conquer like crazy.
 
Thanks for the replies :)

I did replay my earlier save. I settled that island 200 years earlier, and made early contact with China to get Research Agreements. I moved my fourth city a little closer. It's still not a great city, but has Cotton and Uranium. Mainly just Pop for the sake of Pop. I micromanaged specialists more, and just about managed to stay top of Pop and Literacy.

The warmongering of Germany and Monty was even more extreme on this playthrough. By the 1900 Dido, Askia, Atilla and Japan were all eliminated. Monty took China's last city, I kept them alive by founding a city in my tundra and trading it to them.

Then, in 1926 Bismark DoWs me, and started using Nukes when his conventional forces petered out. I defended successfully, and actually capped one of his cities, but he got his rocket away 2 turns before mine was ready.

Perhaps if i'd maintained a larger military he would have decided to pick on Monty instead. In the turns before the war, all my cities had the full complement of science buildings, but i was trying to make sure they all had Hospitals and Medical Labs too, I was also building Culture stuff which just meant that i finished the Rationalism tree well before the game ended but didn't get far enough into Freedom to get any benefits. When the attack came i switched to military units, combine with the loss of Pop from 2 nuclear missiles on my Capitol is why I lost the game by 2 turns.

So, i could go for a 3rd replay and ignore the secondary effects on science, build military units once every city has a research lab, and eat popcorn while i watch Bizzy tear Monty a new one.

It seems though, that winning via only Scientific means on King with No City States with a runaway warmonger is very hard. You guys that played my save showed your military prowess and knowledge of other game mechanics, but you all solved the problem via military means - squishing the runaway - before he gets too far ahead.

I had the technological lead up to the Renaissance era, the problem (if you don't deal with Bismark) comes later on. I think if you're playing a game under these conditions you need to warmonger yourself, at least a bit. I was a bit too timid, i'd come back to the game after some time off, but I also find it psychologically difficult to DoW people, and keep pressing them when they're offering "arm and a leg" peace deals.

There's madness in my method isn't there? :crazyeye: They're just pixels, but i end up pitying them. Despite handpicking 7 of my most hated leaders!
 
Thanks for the replies :)

I did replay my earlier save. I settled that island 200 years earlier, and made early contact with China to get Research Agreements. I moved my fourth city a little closer. It's still not a great city, but has Cotton and Uranium. Mainly just Pop for the sake of Pop. I micromanaged specialists more, and just about managed to stay top of Pop and Literacy.

The warmongering of Germany and Monty was even more extreme on this playthrough. By the 1900 Dido, Askia, Atilla and Japan were all eliminated. Monty took China's last city, I kept them alive by founding a city in my tundra and trading it to them.

Then, in 1926 Bismark DoWs me, and started using Nukes when his conventional forces petered out. I defended successfully, and actually capped one of his cities, but he got his rocket away 2 turns before mine was ready.

Perhaps if i'd maintained a larger military he would have decided to pick on Monty instead. In the turns before the war, all my cities had the full complement of science buildings, but i was trying to make sure they all had Hospitals and Medical Labs too, I was also building Culture stuff which just meant that i finished the Rationalism tree well before the game ended but didn't get far enough into Freedom to get any benefits. When the attack came i switched to military units, combine with the loss of Pop from 2 nuclear missiles on my Capitol is why I lost the game by 2 turns.

So, i could go for a 3rd replay and ignore the secondary effects on science, build military units once every city has a research lab, and eat popcorn while i watch Bizzy tear Monty a new one.

It seems though, that winning via only Scientific means on King with No City States with a runaway warmonger is very hard You guys that played my save showed your military prowess and knowledge of other game mechanics, but you all solved the problem via military means - squishing the runaway - before he gets too far ahead.

I had the technological lead up to the Renaissance era, the problem (if you don't deal with Bismark) comes later on. I think if you're playing a game under these conditions you need to warmonger yourself, at least a bit. I was a bit too timid, i'd come back to the game after some time off, but I also find it psychologically difficult to DoW people, and keep pressing them when they're offering "arm and a leg" peace deals.

There's madness in my method isn't there? :crazyeye: They're just pixels, but i end up pitying them. Despite handpicking 7 of my most hated leaders!

I mean... (you could rush to united nations and hope that the rest of the leaders like you more... easily achievable because everyone hates the runaway) to save the game, but SV in GnK is not that hard (CV in time is much harder)... GnK if you had went desert folklore you could've bought maybe 5-6 GS with faith alone.

And there was no excuse letting Askia die really (your forces could reach him and help surround his cities) and if Bissy is still obsessed with Askia, Dido will not die... (and I hope you were not stupid enough not to sign RAs to help the weaker AIs... I had RAs with everyone except Bissy)

I feel the same way, I tend to pity AIs (except for maybe Atilla and Genghis), and will take peace deals when they beg for mercy :lol: and it's not such a stupid strat... esp if they hand over lump gold and you can just DoW them 10 turns later again anyway. The main reason I stay my hand is because of happiness issues mostly.

And maybe next time (if you capped Germany you should be able to stop his SV) anticipate where his backup capitol will be and intercept the spaceship parts... can't be that hard can't it...
 
TBH I wouldn't use the c*ckblock tactic to save Askia, it's a little cheesy for me - though i guess harder difficulties force your hand. Saving him would either mean fighting, or building him a little tundra penthouse like i did with Wu Zetian.

Well sorry bud, she's better looking, also she didn't just try to kill me. I actually quite enjoyed watching Tombuktu and Atilla's Court burn.

Might try this again as China this time. If any civ starts cheating with cityspam on prozac infinite happiness, i'll do it back to them with range promoted chu-ko-nu.
 
Back
Top Bottom