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CanWill they add or re-work corporations into ciV?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by fat_tonle, Feb 19, 2012.

  1. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    Corporations were a great idea, but I hate how they were implemented. They didn't add much to the excitement of the game and they came so late that it was all but decided. The problem with adding something like corporations in the game is they come so late that it really makes little impact on the game. By then, everyone is just trying to win the game and finish it off, but corporations do little to help win the game. It's just another nuisance to keep track of. If they could introduce corporations and make them relevant and useful, I'd be a fan of it, but I don't want them to add them just to add something more to the game.
     
  2. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Corporations could enter in a later expansion pack but not like they were implemented in Civ 4. Civ 4's Corporations were weak, annoying, didn't add much depth to the common player.
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I agree that they were a little underpowered for the effort that went into getting them and spreading them.

    I did like the implementation though... Used correctly, they can turn a late game second tier Civ into the leader, even the winner, especially in a Pitboss setting, where good micro truly shines.

    That's what gets missed in discussions about Civ 4. In MP, micro is nigh impossible, especially late game. In SP, its just so tedious, it can literally put you to sleep. :sleep: But in Pitboss or PBEM, micro is king:king:. So if you play a lot of those games, you possibly might appreciate Espionage, Corporations, Religions a lot more. I know I do... And I do;)!
     
  4. Durgat

    Durgat Chieftain

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    Corporations could be a way of reaching resources, and influencing the government of nation states.... exactly what they're used for now in the real world. They can also be used as a mechanism for city specialization, production, culture, commercial cities...
     
  5. dagriggstar

    dagriggstar Prince

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    There are so many things you could do with corporations...

    You could set it up so they get a "charter" for a territory, then they act entirely independently of you spreading itself, even founding/capturing cities. Sort of like a peaceful puppet state...

    They could go out and setup international trade routes, between your cities and other civs capitals (But you get the entire gold benefit).

    They can use excess luxuries to create more happiness

    ...etc
     
  6. playshogi

    playshogi Emperor

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    I always thought corporations were already in Civ5 except they are called city-states.
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    exactly! I l always liked the Aluminum and Ethanol corporations for this reason, they create a different resource. The secondary benefit they give is not great, but the concept was a sound one, like an alcohol corporation that creates a whiskey resource or a food corporation that gives a snack-chips resource... Something along those lines, like how Rock n Roll wonder gives the Hit Singles resource.
     
  8. crazyundead

    crazyundead Chieftain

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    they will implement corporations in the 3rd expansion of CiV, obviously.

    and eliminate empire-wide happiness in the 4th expansion.

    finally in the 5th expansion 1 unit per tile would be changed to 5-10 units per tile, and CiV would be complete after 5 expansions and ~$300!
     
  9. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    Good, I won't have to buy the 5-10 units per tile expansion pack because I think that would be a bad idea. I just saved some money! I'd also probably skip expansion 4.

    5 is certainly worth skipping because you can mod that right now.
     
  10. headcase

    headcase Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn

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    Well, I think they were saying only the diplomacy part of religion would decay, as SPs play a bigger role later in the game.

    I think that functionally, religion will be as important as ever in the Modern Era, as the number of beliefs you can adopt increases with certain techs. Doubtless (edit: well probably) some of the beliefs will be very beneficial in later eras; perhaps they will be too powerful until balanced out in patches and mods.

    Corporations are all right, but they need to do something to reduce the micromanagement in the late game before implementing those.

    Those would basically be colonies, but yeah they could have colonies in earlier eras, and replace them with these in later eras, and also increase map size to compensate. Maybe you could even set up a colony or charter as an alternative to keeping a captured city.
     
  11. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Actually "Corporations" in the game as resource users would be best applied more like modern versions of the Monastery or the Mint... ie just updated buildings.

    Although perhaps a set of Wonders that gave per unit benefits (for luxury resources) would be good.

    For the foreign trade benefit... they need a foreign trade Model. (which would improve ships as well)
     
  12. dewbak75

    dewbak75 Chieftain

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    I like the idea of Corporations being kind of like City-States, only without their own independent territory. They would found themselves in a city meeting certain technological and economic conditions. I'm not sure how I would want all the mechanics to work, but I like the idea of some kind of AI's acting within the game other than rival nations. Let's face it, in today's world, some businesses have a LOT of influence on the way the world works. :)
     
  13. headcase

    headcase Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn

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    One way is to have a global corporation list. A civ can spend gold or a great merchant to found a new corporation; it might also permanently take a strat or lux resource. The corporation generates apples\culture\etc for the civ depending on the type of corporation, and other civs can use gold to get lesser benefits from it, or spend more gold to move the corporate HQ to their civ and get full benefits, like ally city states.

    Corporations would actually be a great substitute for City States, if the game were designed so that CSs get inevitably culture flipped or conquered later in the game.
     
  14. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    If there are ever going going be corporations in Civ5, they should be half as an offensive strategy (corporations extracting resources from one civ to another -- either raw resources or money from the resources etc); in addition to half a domestic strategy (increasing your GPT, less unit/building maintenance, increased strategic resources etc).

    In Civ4, there was definitely the opportunity to use corporations offensively (putting an expensive corp in a lot of cities owned by another Civ then using the UN to adopt environmentalism comes to mind). But the opportunities were fairly specialized, and, in some way, always helped the other civ.

    In other words, I want to see some economic warfare outside of pillaging resources/improvements. Corporations could easily add that.
     
  15. Carl5872

    Carl5872 Prince

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    You could have a Blackwater type corporation that consumes strategic resources and in turn generates random units, including unique units that your techs could produce from any civ, for example the B-52 or the Zero even if your'e not Japan or America.
     
  16. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    In theory, the religion system being put into G&K can be reworked into corporations, but without knowing how the AI handles current relgion, I am not sure if it is a good idea.

    In Civ4, corporations were just reskinned religion and the AI was particularly bad/annoying at handling it, as all they can do is spam it. And you never really felt in 'control' of those corporations, it was just one more thing to manage.

    Refitting the current religion system to corporations might work better, but the AI will need to understand it, and perhaps handle it differently than religion. But until Civ can reasonably simulate the transition of modern economies into capitalistic market economies, complete with economic cycles, random Eureka events like Henry Ford introducing the mass produced automobile, or how a government can leverage a monopoly corporation to expand an empire (think of the Dutch East India company) and the associated corporations and the increadilbe wealth benefits they bring that rise with technological innovation (Standard Oil, Google), we'd be stuck with rigid one sized fits all solutions that don't even come close to capturing what corporations really are in relation to empires.

    Part of the problem may be that the corporation is a uniquely western idea and it's really only been dominant in our life for a couple of hundred years, even if early forms of the coporation like the East India companies of the Dutch and the British competed for overseas empires and existed for at least double that time. Though these early corporations informed the structural foundation of modern corporations, and introduced innovations like the stock exchange and the idea of the pooling of privae capital to engage in high risk enterperises, the East India companies of the various European empires were engaged in activitives that would unsettle most modern westerner today.
     
  17. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    I could see a second expansion pack that (VERY simplistically) modeled internal and international trade, and brought back corporations for late-game economic warfare to piggyback on those systems.
     
  18. fat_tonle

    fat_tonle Prince

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    I don't see how a third expansion COULDN'T focus on the modern era... if they felt something was lacking in the ancient, classical, or renaissance era they would have fixed it by now, or will in hopefully a comprehensive patch sooner than later.

    I expect to get more modern civs in a second Xpac. They might add more content and units for each civ and each era, but the focus will most certainly be the modern game. I just don't see them going back to the ancient era any time soon.

    They should have added the Hittites and Sumer by now because of the existing scenario, but that was a very cheap DLC so I'd imagine they wouldn't bother.
     
  19. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    There is indeed a lot to do with corporations - city states open a whole lot of possibilities too. Maybe this could be excessive, but I would even advocate for a new victory condition (economic) that would itself be based in a full additional game layer/mechanic (but that keeps closely linked to the base game).

    Altough it should take me some posts (due to text/image limits) It should not be that complicated in-game, and might be managed trough two or three screens (espionage-type).

    Key ideas:

    The basis could be to have four corporation types (linked to each type of "civilian" GP), and 10 "products" (made by mixing two of these types - or repeating one twice). In example

    :c5trade: "Merchantile" Corporation --> Founded by Great Merchant as "XXX Trading Company".
    :c5science: "Scientific" Corporation --> Founded by Great Scientist as "XXX Inventions & Patents"
    :c5production: "Engineering" Corporation --> Founded by Great Engineer ass "XXX Tools & Hardware"
    :c5happy: "Artistic" Corporation --> Founded by Great Artist as "Comedy & Drama company of the XXX men"

    Products/Brands would include, i.e.:
    Financial Products :)c5trade::c5trade:, Bank of XXX), Fashion/Jewelery :)c5trade::c5happy:, XXX Clothing & Apparel), Energy :)c5trade::c5production:, XXX power), Food Products:)c5trade::c5science:, XXX foods), Media/Broadcasting :)c5happy::c5happy:, XXX Media Group), Infraestructures/Architecture :)c5happy::c5production:, Constructions XXX), Electronics/HighTech:)c5happy::c5science:, XXX Electronics), Heavy Machinery :)c5production::c5production:, XXX Industries), Chemicals/Pharma :)c5production::c5science:, XXX Labs.), and research/education :)c5science::c5science:, XXX Innovation Institutes).


    (continues in next post)
     
  20. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    Each Type of company would be able to open "product lines" associate to its "root" resource (how to do it must be defined, but probably could be done by achieving related resource (gold/culture/research/production) tresholds, building specific builidings, or spending an appropriate GP to speed it up). So each corporation type will manage up to four "brands".

    :c5trade: "Merchantile" Corporation
    Financial Products :)c5trade:)
    Fashion/Jewelery (+:c5happy:)
    Energy (+:c5production:)
    Food Products (+:c5science:)

    :c5happy: "Artistic" Corporation
    Media/Broadcasting :)c5happy:)
    Fashion/Jewelery (+:c5trade:)
    Electronics/HighTech(+:c5science:)
    Infraestructures/Architecture (+:c5production:)

    :c5production: "Engineering" Corporation
    Heavy Machinery :)c5production:)
    Chemicals/Pharma (+:c5science:)
    Energy (+:c5trade:)
    Infraestructures/Architecture (+:c5happy:)

    :c5science: "Scientific" Corporation
    Education/Research :)c5science:)
    Electronics/HighTech(+:c5happy:)
    Chemicals/Pharma (+:c5production:)
    Food Products (+:c5trade:)


    So, this is the layout... ¿which is the game?

    - Economic victory will be achieved by supplying the four products in your company to all civs and city states (monopoly).

    - To supply products, you must have enough primary resources (belonging to your civ or being traded), so we have an initial rationale for corporations influencing diplomace or even generating wars for resources. Note: (resource assignement to manufactured goods would be probably one of the most complex balancing factors).

    - A civ or city state will select only one main supplier for each kind of product. As you can see, any pair of company types always shares a sales good, so competition is always ensured, whatever the corporations founded. Trade agreements with city states to be supplied by your corporation comes into play (or with other civs to ease your/their position as resource provider)... Spending gold in marketing to outplace other established brand might be a possibility as well.

    - Your selected policies might influence tii: on order-communist like policy you might force your civ and allied city states (by "spending" influence) to use your product. On a capitalist-like policy you may have an edge in marketing or reduced corporation costs. Not sure what to give for autocracy, though...

    - Banning products (or benefiting a competitor via a trade agreements) will not always work, first due to the resource caps... and second due to corporation mainenace: Scale economy should be represented in a way depending on the civs/city states/population you are suppling producing goods in your corporation either costs money to your civ (low number of population/civs supplied), breaks even or brings money to your civ (high number of population/civ supplied). If you are loosing too much money due to your company not having market penetration... you (or your producer) may need to close the production of a specific good... giving an opportunity to other civs to position themselves as suppliers (if they have enough primary resources to do so, tough)

    - Additionally, corporations may have a religion-like layer providing "corporation owner" benefits to the Civ which owns the corporation, and "manufactured good" benefits to each civilization that uses a determinate product. These might be, as in religion, selectable for a list. --> I.E. your "infraestructure/architecture" supplier brand might be specialized in transportation systems (reducing road and transportation city improvements maintenance costs), in large-scale terraforming (high reduction on worker improvement costs), or in urban architecture (bonus production and/or extra culture to city improvements or wonders). Unlike religion, it would be possible to get a specific bonus on more than one corporation/product, but might be associated to an specific resource or to additional corporation spreading cost.


    Therefore, to win an economic victory, you must:
    -Use a GP Build a corporation
    -Develop four product brads
    -Find enough resources to provide manufactured goods for all world population
    -Win market share to the competency trough advertising, diplomacy - or whiping them out (destroy competitor civ or at least cut their primary resource supply). You must have as well enough financial muscle (gold) to support advertising and less-than optimal production.

    To defend from an economic victory, you must:
    -Build a counter-corporation that can mantain itself and supply at least to yourself one of the leader corporation products. (to make the corporation rentable, you should either make use of your gold, or try to spread at least to allies).
    -Or help an ally (or enemy) other than the leader corporation owner than can do this and help him by facilitating introducing their products in your civ.
    -Excercise ban/embargos on the leader corporation owner civ so it cost more to them to spread to your civ (diplomacy penalties, tough).
    -Destroy the leader corporation or cut its primary resource lines.

    If noone goes for economy victory, you can still:
    -Try to have gold benefit from your corporation by gaining market share on some products
    -Select corporation benefits that fit your playstile (or facilitate operating in your civ to corporations from other civs that have the benefits you want).

    If you read up to here, ¡congratulations! and ¡thanks! (I was not sure anyone would do) :p . Please feel free to comment -- and if you are a Firaxis producer and like it, I would not mind you using it (a free copy of the 2nd expansion that uses this corporation system would be apprectated, tough ;) :rolleyes: )


    Not really pushing to discuss this in detail tough, just trowing the idea. If you find it interesting, feel free to develop.
     

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