Carthage UHV Discussion

[flyingchicken]

The Punic Wars were a result of Rome's growing power but if I'm pursuing a historical victory I'd like to see something give me an incentive to do a Hannibal and try to crush Rome. They were two powers trying to dominate the western Mediterranean, instead I'm off finding dyes either against Babylon or in the middle of South East Asia. Replacing the 3 UHV dyes with a lot of luxuries could keep Carthage battling historical enemies.

Here's a new set of UHVs specifically catered for the anti-Roman:
-Go through the Alps with at least two mercenary and one elephant units (a mercenary elephant counts as one of each). You may use a ship and land on the Alps, just as long as you set foot there with the said units.
-Defeat at least three Praetorians (akin to the sink 30 ships of the Vikings, and there's already an in-built unit kill counter).
-No Roman unit/cultural influence have to be present in the Italian peninsula by...I dunno.

 

[kairob]

That seems a bit specific and extreme, how about just changing the one from founding 7 cities to controling every square of sea in the western medeteranian (from scicily west)

 

[flyingchicken]

Yes, it is a bit specific and extreme, but if some people badly need a Hannibal fix/anti-Roman Carthaginian game, then that UHV should be quite satisfying.

how about just changing the one from founding 7 cities to controling every square of sea in the western medeteranian (from scicily west)

That sounds a lot tougher, considering that the dyes are in the East and the Far East.

 

[flaming_iles]

In order to be able to get the dyes in a 'historical' manner (Carthage did not invade or settle in persia/india/china to my knowledge) why doesnt Rhye remove the rule that says you can only buy a resource if you don't already have it. That way, Carthage would be able to buy in all the dyes it needs, it only has to get contact and keep friendly with the nations that have the dyes.

 

[Whitefire]

Meh. The Middle East is usually too war-torn to allow for those tiles to be developed. Now you're having to trade with China, which won't have a surplus of dyes.

 

[kairob]

how about collecting all the recourses in the eastern med (only the ones on the coast) instead of the dyes...

 

[mitsho]

I would support something along that line (control dye, wine, gold, silver etc. ...) , but I do think it is somewhat fine as it is...

 

[El_Chimpo]

I think it should be all the resources in the Western Med. Keeps Carthage fighting its historical enemies but keeps it with in its merchant state framework. Carthage kept its mercenary army solely for protecting its monopoly over trade, the second Punic War came about because of Rome threatening this monopoly. Hopefully such a condition would be as hard as the dyes one while managing to be much more historically accurate at the same time.

 

[Whitefire]

I think it should be all the resources in the Western Med. Keeps Carthage fighting its historical enemies but keeps it with in its merchant state framework. Carthage kept its mercenary army solely for protecting its monopoly over trade, the second Punic War came about because of Rome threatening this monopoly. Hopefully such a condition would be as hard as the dyes one while managing to be much more historically accurate at the same time.

You'd need an Ivory around Carthage if you want a UHV that requires taking down Rome.

 

[Edungeon]

You'd need an Ivory around Carthage if you want a UHV that requires taking down Rome.

The player can use the second settler to take the Ivory in the West of Carthage... but it is a crap location, Ivory in the flat area of Carthage is a lot better...

 

[TrailblazingScot]

7 Mediterranean Cities and raise at least 4 mercenary units?

 

[LuKo]

You'd need an Ivory around Carthage if you want a UHV that requires taking down Rome.

Senatus Populusque Romanus likes this idea and will use elephants as fast as possible. Conquering the world will be even easier.

 

[El_Chimpo]

Senatus Populusque Romanus likes this idea and will use elephants as fast as possible. Conquering the world will be even easier.

Hmmm yeah this could make Rome a tad too strong, and to my knowledge Rome never used elephants in battle. What if part of Carthage's UP was that they can build elephants without a sources of ivory? I'd find that the more useful half of their UP if it was added.

As for kittenOFchaos's mercenary idea, it would be really easy just to hire 4 poor quality mercenaries at the last second to complete that goal.

 

[flyingchicken]

What if part of Carthage's UP was that they can build elephants without a sources of ivory? I'd find that the more useful half of their UP if it was added.

What is the rationale behind that UP, then? Carthaginians are actually half-elephants who have genetic throwbacks who are used as the mount of the ferocious Carthaginian war machine?

Anyway, I read somewhere that Carthage is simply notorious for using elephants in battle. They didn't pioneer it, improve it, or anything like that - it was just that the historians of that time made legendary Hannibal's exploits, to be remembered until the present day. I mean, the Roman historians didn't care or know much about the Indians smashing each other with the great beasts and in great numbers; they did, however, care if those elephants were stomping around the army that beat the Roman armies to shreds.

 

[El_Chimpo]

Point taken Flying Chicken. The idea of mutant elephant Carthaginians is amusing though . The UP they have at the moment is historically accurate I just don't find it very useful.
So what do you think of replacing the dyes with all the coastal luxuries in the Western Med, Chicken?

 

[Whitefire]

That is honestly a worse proposal than the Dyes. It will be much more difficult to completely destroy Rome to claim that sole Wine than to take down Sur and Yerushalem.

 

[flyingchicken]

I believe trying to forcibly control all the Mediterranean resources is not exactly what a mercantile Civ would do (merchant = trade). Besides, being forced to take on Rome would be a gamble, especially for not-so-experienced-at-war-players-who-at-the-same-time-want-to-get-the-UHV.

How about requiring Carthage to have a total of maybe 20 trade routes in a certain amount of time instead of taking 3 dyes? That way, you may choose to expand to your liking with the historicity of your game to be decided to you. Rome can start wars with you or not, but at least you won't be shambling against Japan, China, or Babylon at the same time.

 

[El_Chimpo]

The 20 trade routes idea is interesting. It would make building Cothons important which would represent Carthage building its trade networks. Combined with the 7 med cities I think it could be an achievable UHV that is also historically accurate. No more battling Babylon!
As for forcibly trying to control the Med, thats what the Carthaginians did. They used their fleet and mercenary armies to both protect and expand their monopoly over trade, look at their wars against the Sicilian Greeks for example.

 

[LuKo]

X trade routes is a great idea! I like it

 

[mitsho]

but wouldn't that be achieved by building more cities and getting some open borders? I mean, wouldn't that be basically the same as build 7 mediterranean cities?

mick