Carthage!

[crdvis16]

I'm working on a Carthage game and wanted to lay out my thoughts to see if people agree with my assessment or have differing ways of playing them. Their kit:

Phoenician Heritage
Cities produce 125 Gold when founded, scaling with Era. All owned coastal Cities receive a free Lighthouse. The Trade Route resource diversity modifier is either doubled if the value is positive or halved if negative.

Quinquereme, replaces Trireme.
Available earlier, unlocking at Fishing rather than Sailing, and is slightly cheaper, costing only 80 Production as opposed to 90. Starts with the Reconnaissance (gains experience from exploration) Promotion as well as the Heavy Assault (+25% when attacking and +25% Combat Strength versus cities) Promotion.

Great Cothon, replaces East India Company.
Incoming Trade Routes generate +5 Gold for the city and +3 Gold for the Trade Rout owner. The Resource Diversity Modifier for Trade Routes from this City is either increased by +25% if positive or decreased by -25% if negative. All Harbors gain +3 Production and all Lighthouses gain +2 Culture. Provides a free copy of all Luxury Resources around the City. Reduces Poverty. Available earlier (unlocking at Currency), and requires a Market as opposed to a Customs House. Grants two additional Trade Routes.

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My general plan is to go wide, obviously settling coastal sites for the free lighthouses and use the gold on settle bonus probably for rush-built shrines to get an early religion. I'll most likely open up with progress and in general try to prioritize science, settlers, and improving luxes in the early game.

Pantheon default is probably Commerce unless I see bountiful water resources in which case I may go for God of the Sea.

Quinquereme strike me as a somewhat odd unit- they can quickly knock down an un-walled city but they aren't much stronger than normal trireme in terms of fighting other naval units (well, they are 25% stronger when attacking, so I guess roughly 12.5% stronger overall?). You can get them at fishing rather than sailing so I suppose that is an advantage in of itself- if you attack early enough then your opponent simply doesn't have a navy. So I guess my plan is that if a threatening neighbor has coastal cities I might try to rush them down super early, but otherwise just build a few Quinquereme and rack up scouting experience. Investing in a navy should help me defend a wide, water based empire.

My land-based army will likely be mostly defensive, so I might prioritize ranged units for the most part.

After the early settle or conquer rush I plan to pivot into a diplomatic game going Statecraft and Industry for their synergy with trade routes and Carthage's Great Cothon. I figure wide, naval, and lots of gold all play well into diplomatic games. I'll probably try to target Colossus if possible.

For my religion, Follower beliefs will likely be some of the "yields per followers" ones rather than buildings, especially since passive pressure might be relatively weak in my empire if I largely don't need roads. Enhancer will be situational depending on if I think I can spread or not, and reformation will target diplomatic victory.

 

[Minh Le]

One cool thing about the quinquereme is they gain exp by exploring. I normaly use 2 of them for scouting and later they will be a beast.

 

[crdvis16]

I finished my game with Carthage a bit ago and had some final thoughts:

1) the Quinquereme is tough to use offensively, at least on a continents map. Ideally it would rush down nearby cities before your opponent even has a navy but it's often hard to find good targets that you can reasonably expect to hold after taking. I ended up just building 4 or 5 and scouting out the world (using the +movement/sight promotion line) to get some lv 4 and 5 ships but never really had an opportunity to use them for much.

2) Deity is hard. A snowballing Ethiopia built nearly all wonders and won a culture vic on turn 280 which is way faster than I'm used to seeing. He was on another continent and my attacks via the world congress couldn't slow him down enough and I don't think a military intervention was going to work.

 

[chicorbeef]

You're not supposed to hold cities with Quinques. You're supposed to raze them to cripple your neighbours early on.

 

[Txurce]

I'd imagine the UU advantage is limited on Deity, since the AI out-techs and out-hammers you so badly. But on Emperor, my standard strategy is to build 6 asap. I use them to alternately explore, gain tribute, and take cities I either keep or just raze to cripple a neighbor. Rarely a game goes by where I don't gain a major early advantage from either war or tribute. (I keep all 6 in the dreadnought line, then build 3-6 more just before caravels become the only choice, and put them in the status-effect line.)

 

[Minh Le]

2) Deity is hard. A snowballing Ethiopia built nearly all wonders and won a culture vic on turn 280 which is way faster than I'm used to seeing. He was on another continent and my attacks via the world congress couldn't slow him down enough and I don't think a military intervention was going to work.

Even on Deity, an AI winning on turn 280 is still very fast. Which founder belief did he pick? Is this Coucil of Elders or Way of Pilgrim?

 

[CrazyG]

The terrain can definitely determine whether or not you can hold cities that Trireme take.

 

[crdvis16]

Even on Deity, an AI winning on turn 280 is still very fast. Which founder belief did he pick? Is this Coucil of Elders or Way of Pilgrim?

I'm not sure which founder he got, I've already moved on to an Ottoman game now.

I'm used to seeing Ethiopia jump out to a tech lead but then usually everyone mostly catches back up to him. In this game he was ~10 techs ahead of everyone from the time I found his continent and he kept that lead until the end which he used to just spam wonders. He was influential with everyone by mid game at which point it was just a formality for him to get his 10 ideology policies and build the wonder.

I though I might have a chance by using his tech lead to unlock united nations and world ideology. I got united nations passed and was a few turns away from passing world ideology with plenty of votes when he won.

 

[crdvis16]

I'd imagine the UU advantage is limited on Deity, since the AI out-techs and out-hammers you so badly. But on Emperor, my standard strategy is to build 6 asap. I use them to alternately explore, gain tribute, and take cities I either keep or just raze to cripple a neighbor. Rarely a game goes by where I don't gain a major early advantage from either war or tribute. (I keep all 6 in the dreadnought line, then build 3-6 more just before caravels become the only choice, and put them in the status-effect line.)

I think a recent patch made tribute more difficult with Quinquereme- they now have the same CS as a trireme but have promotions to give them bonuses when attacking and against cities. So 6 quins are the same as 6 triremes when it comes to tributing, though you do unlock them earlier and their mobility might still make them useful for tribute.

 

[crdvis16]

You're not supposed to hold cities with Quinques. You're supposed to raze them to cripple your neighbours early on.

I should have considered this, though my immediate neighbors were Zulu and Rome so I got a little hesitant to pick a fight. In a different game with different neighbors I probably would have been more aggressive.

 

[crdvis16]

The terrain can definitely determine whether or not you can hold cities that Trireme take.

I found my targets to be limited. Cities with just a single coastal tile could probably only be taken very early and if there's an archer or two nearby it can be tough- you might lose the quin even if you take the city. Cities with multiple coastal tiles drop fast, though.

The window of opportunity is quite short. Once they have walls, lots of ranged units, or triremes of their own you're probably not going to make much progress. Quins are pretty mediocre in navy vs navy fights I think.

 

[Txurce]

I think a recent patch made tribute more difficult with Quinquereme- they now have the same CS as a trireme but have promotions to give them bonuses when attacking and against cities. So 6 quins are the same as 6 triremes when it comes to tributing, though you do unlock them earlier and their mobility might still make them useful for tribute.

You have to start with from a decision to maximize your UU, part of whose power comes from coming so early that only archers can threaten it. Focus on quickly getting them promoted to here they can heal in any water... and build enough of the that archers and damage don't quickly derail your campaign.

Tributing is most affected by the changes, which is why I build 6. Get them out fast and you only need 2 to gain major tribute. Tribute almost always falls into the gold category by the time the CS generate 22+ defense, but that's obviously still worthwhile early on. If 3+ CS are within reach (and they usually are) you can make a killing just about every game.

With regard to attacking cities early, the thing to remember is that you are crippling or downright eliminating your neighbors. Given this, I find it almost mandatory to quickly attack a Rome or the Zulu with my huge, unchallenged fleet. There's nothing they can do, and will never threaten you again. Along these lines, if their capital is on the coast, that becomes my first target. Even if they only have one coastal tile, you can take them if you have enough ships. Losing a city you took doesn't mean much when you can get it right back, and kill an enemy unit each time. And as CrazyG said, there are some that are easier to hold.

Now as I said in my first post, Deity may well be different, in that the window's shorter for walls to go up.

 

[crdvis16]

You have to start with from a decision to maximize your UU, part of whose power comes from coming so early that only archers can threaten it. Focus on quickly getting them promoted to here they can heal in any water... and build enough of the that archers and damage don't quickly derail your campaign.

Tributing is most affected by the changes, which is why I build 6. Get them out fast and you only need 2 to gain major tribute. Tribute almost always falls into the gold category by the time the CS generate 22+ defense, but that's obviously still worthwhile early on. If 3+ CS are within reach (and they usually are) you can make a killing just about every game.

With regard to attacking cities early, the thing to remember is that you are crippling or downright eliminating your neighbors. Given this, I find it almost mandatory to quickly attack a Rome or the Zulu with my huge, unchallenged fleet. There's nothing they can do, and will never threaten you again. Along these lines, if their capital is on the coast, that becomes my first target. Even if they only have one coastal tile, you can take them if you have enough ships. Losing a city you took doesn't mean much when you can get it right back, and kill an enemy unit each time. And as CrazyG said, there are some that are easier to hold.

Now as I said in my first post, Deity may well be different, in that the window's shorter for walls to go up.

Yeah I could see that working. You probably have to just fully commit to it as you say. I was more focused on settling cities to play off of the UA and it's probably not possible to do both very well, as both the UA and the UU have a relatively short window of opportunity.

 

[Minh Le]

Yeah I could see that working. You probably have to just fully commit to it as you say. I was more focused on settling cities to play off of the UA and it's probably not possible to do both very well, as both the UA and the UU have a relatively short window of opportunity.

You could settle cities to gain gold to buy Quinquereme though.

 

[crdvis16]

You could settle cities to gain gold to buy Quinquereme though.

That's like... so obviously the correct thing to do. I used the gold to rush shrines and get a pantheon/religion ASAP which is useful, but obviously playing the UU and the UA off of each other would have been more thematically "Carthage". Ugh, it makes me want to replay a Carthage game now, can't believe I didn't go for that synergy.

 

[Txurce]

That's like... so obviously the correct thing to do. I used the gold to rush shrines and get a pantheon/religion ASAP which is useful, but obviously playing the UU and the UA off of each other would have been more thematically "Carthage". Ugh, it makes me want to replay a Carthage game now, can't believe I didn't go for that synergy.

Not to pile on, but I rush shrines in my first 3 cities to guarantee a religion, and still have the gold to build the ships, while expanding to 5-7 cities by t100. Keep in mind that you could be getting tribute well before you have 6 ships. (You also don't need 6, but I've found that number works for me.)

 

[Txurce]

Not to pile on, but I rush shrines in my first 3 cities to guarantee a religion, and still have the gold to build the ships, while expanding to 5-7 cities by t100. Keep in mind that you could be getting tribute well before you have 6 ships. (You also don't need 6, but I've found that number works for me.)

EDIT: Play at least the beginning again. Few early strategies are more enjoyable than maximizing Carthage's strengths. It also gets you early DoF's.