Casus Belli System and Multiplayer.

[UnderKingDuck]

I really like what they are doing with introducing a casus belli system to civ 6 and it seems to be something very interesting to use in a single player game. But I do wonder if the casus belli system has it's used for a multiplayer game. Like in a single player game you would get warmongering penalties which affects your diplomatic relationships with other AI, but if you for example played a game with only human players does this system have any other effect other then that? Cause pretty much nothing is going to stop any player to just declare surprise wars the whole game if that is the case. I really hope I'm wrong though cause I really do want the casus belli system to be just as important in a multiplayer game as it is in a single player game.

 

[CanuckSoldier]

We don't need an artificial penalty for being a warmonger, if you don't succeed, your nieghbours will kill you.....MP has real human politics

And in MP reputations carry over from game to game as well....

CS

 

[UnderKingDuck]

yeah I understand that, but my point is if the casus belli system pretty much as any used in an online game. Cause the idea of it is cool and make a lot of sense, but if it is something that can pretty much be ignored in a online game with all human players then why even have it. Like something along the lines of suffering more happiness penalties when doing a surprise war in the later eras of the game instead of a formal or a casus belli war. Like what India gets with Gandhi's UA

 

[CanuckSoldier]

There are many things in Civ games that only apply to SP and not MP, that is why certain civs will be played in MP since AI related bonuses are useless. MP groups have always made "house rules" for games to make up for the fact that many of the mechanics in a game are not applicable to MP. This is just the way we do things...

CS

 

[x2Madda]

You must be new to multiplayer David, CS is very correct, MP is a whole new beast. No one cares about the CB system for MP. You are always at war, at all times. Even if you don't know it, even if they haven't declared yet, they are building an army and they are going to kill you or you will need to kill them. Its that simple when it comes to MP.

 

[UnderKingDuck]

No I am not new with Multiplayer. I have played hundreds of hours in civ 4 (mostly with fall from heaven) and I did a few game in civ 5 online. I just don't like the idea of implementing a mechanic for a game that really makes a lot of sense for a civilization game, but only has use in a game with a AI. Of course house rules are always something that can be done to address it, but I feel surprise wars should have some down side when being used in the later stages of the game which make formal or casus belli war a more appealing option to use. Even if it simply something as simple as more war weariness from surprise wars from your pop I would be happy.

 

[Biz_]

part of the reason civ4 was so good is that all the bonuses and abilities were relevant in SP and MP

but if civ6 supports modding properly and we alter the bonuses, then we might be able to just play random leader selection without getting screwed

 

[Big J Money]

David is absolutely right. If they wanted to, they could implement an MP version of the Casus Belli system. There was an MP strategy game I used to play where you are a Lord of Hell (can't remember the name now) and they had a somewhat similar system. Actually you had to get approval from the current ruler of the Hell Council before you could war with another demon Lord, as well.

But yes, they could make something interesting from the system if they wanted to. Too bad MP isn't easily modded or else we could come up with something ourselves!

 

[JustMormegil]

Why don't to apply CB penalties to amenity of warmorgering player?

So if you attack another player without proper CB, this will hit your war weariness greatly.
This will make CB system work both in SP and MP.

CB system works perfectly in Europa Universalis 4 multiplayer, where its came from.

 

[CanuckSoldier]

Why don't to apply CB penalties to amenity of warmorgering player?

So if you attack another player without proper CB, this will hit your war weariness greatly.
This will make CB system work both in SP and MP.

CB system works perfectly in Europa Universalis 4 multiplayer, where its came from.

But again, like I said above, why do you need artificial limitations to combat in MP? Human players are there own limitation, good players will limit less good players....and players that always back-stab will have that reputation and find themselves under attack in future games.

CS

 

[JustMormegil]

But again, like I said above, why do you need artificial limitations to combat in MP? Human players are there own limitation, good players will limit less good players....and players that always back-stab will have that reputation and find themselves under attack in future games.

I think it can bring more strategical depth to diplomacy. To take some actions, you need appropriate reasons and should be ready to face some consequences. Also it can help to make SP and MP diplomacy a bit closer (not equivalent of course).

 

[JustMormegil]

Actually there is war weariness penalty for been warmonger with bad casus belli - there worse CB you use - the faster war weariness is obtained.

I like this system!

 

[Stephano]

Actually there is war weariness penalty for been warmonger with bad casus belli - there worse CB you use - the faster war weariness is obtained.!

Interesting... I've been wondering if this is the case? Do you have any examples/references to information that confirms this assumption?

 

[JustMormegil]

Interesting... I've been wondering if this is the case? Do you have any examples/references to information that confirms this assumption?

There are some interesting parameters in game files, look at GlobalParameters:

        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_DECAY_PEACE_DECLARED" Value="2000" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_DECAY_TURN_AT_PEACE" Value="200" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_DECAY_TURN_AT_WAR" Value="50" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_LOSS_OVER_REQ_AMENITIES_AT_WAR_CITY" Value="3" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_LOSS_OVER_REQ_AMENITIES_FOUNDED_CITY" Value="0" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_LOSS_OVER_REQ_AMENITIES_NONFOUNDED_CITY" Value="1" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_PER_COMBAT_IN_ALLIED_LANDS" Value="1" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_PER_COMBAT_IN_FOREIGN_LANDS" Value="2" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_PER_UNIT_KILLED" Value="3" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_PER_WMD_LAUNCHED" Value="10" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_POINTS_FOR_AMENITY_LOSS" Value="400" />
        
        <Row Name="WAR_WEARINESS_WARMONGER_BASE" Value="16" />
        
        <Row Name="WARMONGER_LIBERATE_POINTS" Value="-32" />
        
        <Row Name="WARMONGER_RAZE_PENALTY_PERCENT" Value="200" />
        
        <Row Name="WARMONGER_STOP_OCCUPYING_REFUND_PERCENT" Value="-100" />

War weariness in accumulated in multiple ways during war. As I understand, each 400 WW points cost you 1 amenity, Warmonger parameter multiplies war weariness from different sources.

Still needs to be tested.