Caught the AI Cheating

[Nergal]

I actually caught the AI 'cheating', well at least peeking over my shoulder, which is cheating in my book. And I have the saves to prove it if required.

It was around 1455 to 1470 AD, playing the English at Monarch level. I am a couple of turns off conquering my continent, having disposed of the Germans, Mongols and almost the Ottomans. I've spent most of the game in monarchy, you cant beat it for sheer killing power. Seeing a possible peacetime looming, Democracy seemed a good bet to research, massive economy boost = research boost = possible Spaceship victory. No chance the Persians are even now heading for my shores with horsemen!!!! and a declaration of war. I'm not too worried my Cavalry will see to him, and they do not too much later.

Now for the 'cheating'. I check the Civs every turn, nobody has Democracy, the Zulu are almost on a par with me but dont have it, until the turn I get it when they dont need it. OK I can accept that they are researching it at the same time as me and get it in the same turn. But they are the only ones with any cash, the game is particularly cash poor. And I am researching at a profit, quite a reasonable one, or a manageable deficit will get it one turn earlier. I reload and up my research by 1 turn. The Zulu still beat me to Democracy!!!!!!!!!! Which means they knew I had upped my research and did the same. I reloaded a couple of turns earlier and upped my research so I would get Democracy 2 turns early. I get it and beat the Zulus who then pay me all their gold plus a reasonable 12gpt and a lux. Which I feel is a bit high for someone who is 1 turn off the tech.

In the past I have been beaten to Wonders by a turn, even reloading and re-engineering my cities hasnt helped. I assumed it was just the AI's production capacity exceeding mine but this shows otherwise. Not only does the AI know where all the luxuries are, it also knows what techs I am researching and my research level and production levels of all my cities. Thats apart from knowing what the military strengths of my towns are.

I actually expected better of the AI, perhaps preset strategies or something but its simply knowledge of my play and reacting to it. Overall I found it intensely annoying and a bit disappointing. I for one now see no reason not to reload and rework things to my advantage. Playing at Monarch puts the AI in an advantageous position anyway, plus with its level of inside information the player is at a serious disadvantage. Its probably acceptable in Civ4, the espionage is more worked out, but this is real Civ we are talking about.

 

[Moosezilla]

It's simple: outcheat the cheaters!

 

[rysingsun]

I reload and up my research by 1 turn. The Zulu still beat me to Democracy!!!!!!!!!! Which means they knew I had upped my research and did the same.

Well done Nergal

I guess I am going to have to throw my lot in with you as one who agrees that the ai cheats.

I've recently watched an ai with only a single size one tundra-town repeatedly rush a rifleman every single turn for only 100 gold each time. Yes they cheat!

 

[Tasslehoff]

I've recently watched an ai with only a single size one tundra-town repeatedly rush a rifleman every single turn for only 100 gold each time. Yes they cheat!

What level were you playing at? AI gets reduced shield costs at higher levels; that was probably the reason.

Anyway, of course the AI cheats! How else are you expected to have a decent challenge? To respond, you shouldn't cheat back, you should become a better player. Yes the AI cheats, because human players are infinitely better. Prove it, and win honorably!

 

[Nergal]

I dont see reloading as cheating. The AI cheats to an unbelievable level anyway. Questionable movement rates, preferred bonuses from goody huts. The way their units always promote. ROP Rape without any appreciable effect from Rep hits. Effectively no fog of war because they know where everyone is. There is a huge catalogue. I'm prepared to accept the shield bonuses, its part of the penalty for playing at a higher level. The preferred trading rates for techs between AI's is ok too. So reloading and a little reworking is fine by me as it gives me chance to learn from my mistakes on the spot and become a better player. As for winning honourably, I always DOW before moving into AI territory in order to massacre them and I always take combat losses on the chin. I'm just griping because its the first time I've got them in a provable cheat, rather than a situation where it looks like they might be cheating but its just about feasible within the rules of the game. I've got stacks of wins at Monarch level, mostly without a reload, this situation intrigued me enough to reload. Really I'm just arguing for a fairer game and its a gripe aganst the developers for not designing a better AI. One that reacts to information it should have rather than the infromation it does have.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

They are NOT cheating. It simply has something to do with the research cost for technologies, and the fact that said reseach cost goes down sigificantly if a known civ has obtains the tech. Or to put it in other words, the more civs have a certain tech the less expensive it is, and the less civs have a tech the more expensive it is.

 

[Nergal]

No that doesnt add up Lord Elm ... 250 gp, 12gpt and a lux for a tech that he would only be a turn off getting doesnt make sense. Its a 1 turn difference and only me having the tech. The other 3 surviving civs are nowhere near it.

 

[Aabraxan]

This is very interesting. I don't have any answers, but I'm going to spam the thread so I can keep up with the discussion.

 

[Headbanger]

Thier cheating sorta makes up for thier stupidty in a thousand other areas, though.

 

[Nergal]

I just think its down to the reactive AI. I agree it is mostly stupid, it seems to attack cities based on weird priorities. I occasionally get caught out because it understands the movement point to a degree I dont and end up with wounded troops out in the middle of nowhere that it can pick off. I then take those troops out, which is just silly.
I do seem to end up with Civs in particular roles. One or two will be my equal in a military fashion, others from a tech point of view, and others culturally. I found in this game that the Zulus had lots of marketplaces, suggesting high commerce and research. They didnt have a lot of barracks, or a huge amount of culture. Its just the way the AI plays the game; its down to countering your strategy. I think I am often guilty of playing the game in a particular pattern. I beeline Military Tradition then Scientific Method, pretty much always. The AI's always appear to work the same way. But other players appear to get different results. Its probably down to styles of play, and mine only really varies according to initial terrain.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

No that doesnt add up Lord Elm ... 250 gp, 12gpt and a lux for a tech that he would only be a turn off getting doesnt make sense. Its a 1 turn difference and only me having the tech. The other 3 surviving civs are nowhere near it.

Uh, I don't know, the AI is crazy after government techs. Also, when did you check with them? Consistently IBT?

 

[Nergal]

Thats what I said in the initial post.

1470 I get Democracy, the Zulus, who I'd checked the previous turn dont need it.
I reload go back a turn and check, no they dont have it.
I go back another turn, increase my research so I get it a turn early, the Zulus dont have it on the previous turn but dont need it when I get it.
I go back 2 turns, increase my research so I am running at at -78gpt deficit but get it 2 turns earlier than I would have initially. This time I beat the Zulus to it and they fall over themselves to buy it from me.
The other Civs dont even have stuff like literature.
It basically points to the AI monitoring player tech research and trying to beat the player to high value monopoly techs. My tech research is consistently pretty good and I'm always getting requests 1 turn off a tech, offering me that tech for one of my and all my gold. I refuse, of course.

 

[Marsden]

Not to sound unbelieving, but there must be some truth to this because I've seen them offer me the tech I'm 1 turn away from completing often.

Also, others have told me the more beakers invested in a tech the less the AI demands as payment. Unless that's is wrong, they then must know what I'm researching and how far along, a huge advantage.

 

[Bartleby]

I think the reason the Zulu gain the tech the same turn you do is because the cost for them drops once you research it. If you go back more turns, the amount of research they have put towards it isn't enough for them to get it straight away.

Without wanting to seem arsey, whatever "cheats" the AI has pale into insignificance compared with reloading.

 

[MAS]

For the purpose of trade value of a tech they do know how many beakers are invested, but it works the other way around too, just like how your own military adviser knows how strong the AI military is. (stronger then us, or weak compared to us)

That doesn't mean that they adapt their own research to yours...

As for the offer 250 gold, 12 gpt and a lux.
Whats the map size? and difficulty level? late MA tech can be worth a lot on large maps and higher levels.
And who says they wheren't taking advantage of the 50 turn cap? being at turn 47 but having invested only very few actual beakers?

Questionable movement rates, preferred bonuses from goody huts. The way their units always promote

I know about the map knowlege, but these ones are new to me... (read: I' don't buy it)

 

[rysingsun]

Regarding the ai rush of a rifleman each turn for 100 gold ...

What level were you playing at? AI gets reduced shield costs at higher levels; that was probably the reason.

Deity. Cost of rifleman is 80 shield x 60 percent --> 48 shield. At 4 gold/shield for rush we have 192 gold (this ignores the fact that if you rush a rifle EVERY turn you will have to double the gold to 384. Since they had only a single city and I bombed it every turn eliminating any defense there were no units to disband to contribute toward the shield count. It was a milkrun late in the game and cash was no object anymore. So for several turns in a row I paid to investigate the city. It produced no more than a couple shields and a couple gold per turn. Of course I could also contact them each turn and observe their cash situation. Yup, they cheat!

But no, I do not use this as an excuse for reloading. If a person wants to say "I screwed up and forgot to switch my lux tax back and all my cities rioted so I'm reloading" or "I accidentally revolted to despotism so I'm reloading" or "I'm going to keep reloading until I get a SCL so I can rush pyramids" those excuses are all his business, but if a person says "I deserve to reload because the ai cheats" I think that person needs to just face the fact that he is not as good as he wants to claim to be.

 

[Nergal]

I've got a game at the moment where the Persians have just beat me to Chivalry by a couple of turns. Chivalry isnt a preferred AI tech .. Standard size Map .. difficulty is Monarch. I'd already destroyed 3 Civs, well one was hanging on by a thread, size 1 capital with 5 of my Cav outside waiting for it to grow to size 2. I checked every turn, both with Civ Assist and by talking to the AIs. The Zulu were on full research until my research pace exceeded their capacity to keep up. I later partially destroyed the Zulu hence the reason I know what was in their towns, apart from cultural buildings.
Questionable movement rates ... movement through unroaded jungle at roaded rate. I've already pointed out that its probably the AI using its movement more effectively than I do, but I'm not anal enough to worry about every last point of efficiency. Preferred results from goody huts. Playing an expansionist Civ with 4 or 5 scouts covering a pangea effectively and the Americans end up with 8 techs ahead of me. My scouts only get maps or cash and the odd warrior ??? Countless combats, reported by others on the forums where a stack of troops gets decimated taking an AI town, first troop reduces a defender to redline and dies, defender promotes, second troop does the same, 3rd troop hits%2

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Thats what I said in the initial post.

Sorry, I probably didn't express my question all that well. Let me try to explain. There are two possibilties of when you might have checked with the AI. The first possibility is right away when you discover the tech, i.e. via "Big Picture" and the foreign advisor screen in between turns (IBT). The second possiblity is after the production phase is over, on the new turn.

The difference between those two is that checking IBT still belongs to the old turn, while obviously the new turn, well, is the new turn. I simply wanted to know whether you checked consistently during, say, IBT, or whether you checked at one time IBT and at another time on the new turn.

Because, if you during your first trials checked only after the production phase and then later on, on your third trial, checked already IBT then it would simply mean that the Zulu would still lack two turns of research. Well, _if_.

 

[Nergal]

I checked both Lord Elm. And checked with Civ Assist too. CivAII does lag though. I'm not hugely complaining about it though. The Civ AI is known to be reactive, this is the first time I've actually caught it 'mid-cheat' though. On the subject of questionable movement. A friend of mine has been playing a game, where warriors have just trashed one of her cities. She has troops on hills and mountains so has a good view of the area. The city was unroaded and the enemy warriors are moving round it at 2 tiles diagonally. Hers can only move at one.
I just find the AI behaviour interesting. I've been a software systems engineer for 25 years, reverse engineering systems is what I do for a living, and I'm good at it. I've worked with real AI engineering and expert systems, and game design. It intrigues me as to why the AI does certain things and why some people get certain results and others dont. I'm convinced its down to playing style and the way the AI reacts to different styles.

 

[Tribute]

I believe Bartleby is correct. And this may very well be the order per turn.

1. Shields and commerce are applied for everyone.
2. Human research and builds complete.
3. AI research and builds complete (backwards, from the civ lowest, upwards in the diplomacy list when clicking on the D tab in the bottom right box). AI can also trade techs???
4. Human can trade and move units.
5. AI can trade and move units (also in backwards order).

Since 3 occurs after 2, the tech costs are already lower. (And it is a significant reduction.) Thus, explaining why the Zulu got the tech at the same time you did.

It's definitely simpler than reacting to the human player. Because on multiplayer, either the algorithm gets too complicated where the AI considers all human research rates, or the algorithm only focuses on player 1, which would defeat the purpose of comparisons to humans. However, simplicity isn't really proof of anything.