Cavaleiros Embassy & Intelligence

Indiansmoke · Jul 8, 2009

I had a chat with Oyzar as well...

Spoiler :

Bottom line...they will not help with military uints, at least not in the near future and I think not in the medium/distant future either.

So we are by ourselves.

In the light of this I think we need to seriously consider what we will do...the next 10 turns are crucial to the developement of this game for us.

Not taking the Sancta cities by force or peacefully is game over for us.

We need to sertiously reconsider our whole relationship with cav as 40 turns from now they will have 20 cities and we will have 8...and there is no comming back for us after this.

donsig · Jul 8, 2009

I do not agree with your analysis Indiansmoke. The game is not over for us if we don't get those SANCTA cities in ten turns. That is overly pessimistic and ignores the help Team Cav can give us in 30 or 40 turns. Your whole analysis assumes Team Cav would not live up to a balance of power deal. What we should be doing is securing our alliance with Team Cav. Land sharing was mentioned in one of the chats and it was not thrown out - they said they'd want a formal agreement in place. We can't really do that until we get maps but that will be soon. We should take the next few days to resume our official negotiations with Team Cav regarding the alliance within an alliance that they proposed. We can take their proposal, throw out the excess beaker compensation and the 20k beakers, and add in a clause prohibiting unilateral declarations of war. We can also begin trying to define balance of power in the document. We can bring up the idea of a cap which we have discussed. This will take some time but we really need to share maps before we sign any agreement anyway. Once we get the maps we can spell out what land goes to which team and include it in the treaty. We are finally getting to the point where we can add the specifics into the agreement that some of you wanted. All we need now is our team's agreement to begin serious discussions and negotiations.

Indiansmoke · Jul 8, 2009

Well again I disagree..experience tells me that if an opponent has 20 cities and you have 8...even if you reach 15 cities 50 turns later the situation is hopeless.

Because for those 50 turns he has developed grown cities with buildings and you are aquiring new land, bare cities, are under WW, cultural pressure from opponent and it takes time to recover...that is why early rushes are so powerfull in single player...it is the same in multiplayer...the earlier you get the land the much better.

So unless Cav are dogpilled by everyone else, they will easily win the game...because they will be developed then 50 turns later will help us eliminate Sancta and there will be no-one left to stop them.

This is a bit simplistic but it is roughly how things work and believe me that is their plan...if you saw in the chat....they are thinking domination.

So there are 2 ways for us to be able to compete.

1. Overcome Sancta now by force
2. make a deal with Sancta now

donsig · Jul 8, 2009

Yes, they've been thinking domination from the beginning. That's hasn't been a secret. But they offered us an alliance within an alliance where it would be Kaz/Cav as the last two standing then we fight it out. We had gotten to the point of including the balance of power idea so that our two teams would be evenly matched at the end of the alliance. Why isn't this route a viable option? I find it hard to believe that even with SANCTA gone Team Cav could win against a united Kaz/MS/Saturn. We have good relations with MS and we've not burned any bridges with Saturn. If we allied with Team Cav and tried for a balance of power with them while MS and Saturn were still strong we'd be able to ally with MS and Saturn if Team Cav didn't give up what was needed to balance things between us.

From the chats it appears the only direction we can expand into is SANCTA land. So even if they give us the area around Angle we're not gonna have the land we need to match Team Cav's cities, are we? I do not see how a deal with SANCTA helps us. If we turn on Team Cav wouldn't it be SANCTA who ends with Team Cav's land rather than us?

Kaleb · Jul 8, 2009

btw SANCTA don't really have that much of a production advantage. with all the whipping we are doing we are producing on a par with them. not to mention the fact that our OR and Bureau bonusses aren't factored into the demographics (but forges are)

damnrunner · Jul 8, 2009

Kaleb said:
btw SANCTA don't really have that much of a production advantage. with all the whipping we are doing we are producing on a par with them. not to mention the fact that our OR and Bureau bonusses aren't factored into the demographics (but forges are)

True but we can't keep up this whipping forever - and we can bet that they are doing a lot of chopping on their side.

But I agree that we are at our comparative strongest verse Sancta right now. If we can't break out through the valley in the next 10-20 turns then I think we have to turtle and hope that we can pull something off with redcoats.

cav scout · Jul 8, 2009

I agree with Indiansmoke. If we can't break out we should ally with SANCTA. Otherwise we just grind against them in a war of attrition. Meanwhile CAV peacefully builds up to an unstoppable lead. Then they draft the crap out of their many cities and run wild.

damnrunner · Jul 8, 2009

cav scout said:
I agree with Indiansmoke. If we can't break out we should ally with SANCTA. Otherwise we just grind against them in a war of attrition. Meanwhile CAV peacefully builds up to an unstoppable lead. Then they draft the crap out of their many cities and run wild.

If we can't break out we are in trouble, but I don't see how an alliance with sancta could work. The geography of our border is such that territory is pretty much a zero sum game between us. Even if they would agree to trading the former barb city for technology (and aren't just stringing us along) then what? We still can't really grow except into Sancta. That is a pretty unbalanced structure for an alliance.

I think our 1st option should be to talk to Team Cav about balance of power. If they can't/won't offer anything to help balance - then we can discus other options.

If, at this point, an alliance with Team Cav is not feasible then what. I still have big doubts about sancta and think we would be better off talking to Saturn/MS. They face the most immediate threat from a growing Team Cav. A block of 3 weaker powers is not ideal. But I think it is a more workable option than trying to win while playing second fiddle to either Cav or Sancta. The risk of course that this would result in Team Cav and Sancta becoming close allies.

Sommerswerd · Jul 9, 2009

At least for the time being, we should focus heavily on building up gold to upgrade our units. Cavalieros players seem a little dismayed that we will be pulling back on tech to get upgrades, but at the same time they will not send units. So since we are on our own (unit-wise) we should start leveraging our commerce for military, and try to overwhelm SANCTA. Maybe can capture enough SANCTA cities to stay on par with Cavalieros' expansion :please:

. We might want to consider opening a second front though.

Unless we want to just ally with SANCTA, that is. It seems clear that since a CavSANCTA alliance would sandwich us, we are stuck with either SANCTA or Cavalieros.

Indiansmoke · Jul 9, 2009

donsig said:
Yes, they've been thinking domination from the beginning. That's hasn't been a secret. But they offered us an alliance within an alliance where it would be Kaz/Cav as the last two standing then we fight it out. We had gotten to the point of including the balance of power idea so that our two teams would be evenly matched at the end of the alliance. Why isn't this route a viable option? I find it hard to believe that even with SANCTA gone Team Cav could win against a united Kaz/MS/Saturn. We have good relations with MS and we've not burned any bridges with Saturn. If we allied with Team Cav and tried for a balance of power with them while MS and Saturn were still strong we'd be able to ally with MS and Saturn if Team Cav didn't give up what was needed to balance things between us.

From the chats it appears the only direction we can expand into is SANCTA land. So even if they give us the area around Angle we're not gonna have the land we need to match Team Cav's cities, are we? I do not see how a deal with SANCTA helps us. If we turn on Team Cav wouldn't it be SANCTA who ends with Team Cav's land rather than us?

Yes you are right, there is that chance that if we go with Sancta that Sancta will become all too powerfull instead of Cav. the question is what gives us better chances? ATM there is space to settle to the west towards cav and to the north towards saturn...but there is none to the east...so peacefull expansion if we are gifted angle is possible in the other directions...while if we are not gifted angle it is only through war....that is my point...but I do realize that all this is theoretical as Sancta gifting angle will not happen..and I also don't feel very good about betraying Cav, despite logic telling me the opposite.

Kaleb · Jul 9, 2009

Bottom line...they will not help with military uints, at least not in the near future and I think not in the medium/distant future either.

So we are by ourselves.

I'm not so sure about this, they can't do a lot logistically so send units to us. what would be helpful for us is for them to be able to send scouts out to map the middle of the land and watch SANCTA units along their western border.

having HAs or Chariots nearby will give SANCTA cause for concern as they could always launch a surprise attack. SANCTA will then need to decide whether or not they want to take those units out and drag Cav into the war proper.

By the end of our next turn we can whip 3 Catapults a Mace and finish a HA. Plus we'll have enough gold to upgrade an Axe to a Mace. By the time we get our chariots and the WE to the front we'll have enough gold to upgrade our other 2 axes and the sword.

So in 5 turns (ie on T114) we can have the following stack on Taraz or the forest next to Taraz:

4 Catapults
1 WE
5 Maces
2 HAs
2 Chariots
1 Spear
1 Crossbow

So we can be attacking SANCTA with this stack on T118 if we go direct for TKY

damnrunner · Jul 9, 2009

That is a good stack - but do we go straight for TKY? I think we may need to raise the closer city 1st. Though that does waste time.

Sommerswerd · Jul 9, 2009

If we are trying to raze both cities it probably does not matter as much, but I would say that going after TKY is probably the priority. We do't want to give them more time to reinforce that city or build a wall :eek:

damnrunner · Jul 10, 2009

My concern is that going straight for TKY leaves us open to a counter attack as our stack moves north.

donsig · Jul 23, 2009

Anyone think we should send the battle results to Team Cav? This might spur them on to attacking SANCTA sooner rather than later.

damnrunner · Jul 23, 2009

I think we should.

After all, they should know about it from the demo screen and Sancta's posting in the global forum.

damnrunner · Jul 23, 2009

Team Cav should still have a chariot in the vicinity right? If possible they may be able to use it to raze Dragon Tears if the city remains undefended. They could also give us a lot of help by pillaging the road from Dragon Tears to Sancta’s core cities. This would make it much more difficult for sancta to bring up reinforcements.

damnrunner · Jul 23, 2009

Wow - they have a lot of land. It would make sense for Cav to want to take that barbarian city to the NE of Zhou. Once they have that city they could easily give us a bit of help. And the units they use to take the barbarian city will be in a good position to push on Sancta a bit.

donsig · Jul 27, 2009

I got this pm from oyzar:

oyzar said:
oyzar said:

Kaleb said:

I logged in before but game crashed when I clicked to accept your demand. So I couldn't tell if it did it or not.

I'm not going to home until 7ish London time. See if cavscout, donsig or sommers can login for you. If not we can ask for a pause as site was down.

Did u get cash from MS?

oyzar said:

3 hours left on the turn, lucky i'll be around when it flips today... Will you make it in time or will you manage to get someone to log in for you?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Yeah i got cash from MS, but not from you guys...

Click to expand...

Hope some of you will be able to log in to help...

I cannot login since my son has my BtS disk. Can someone else do this (or request a pause) if it's not too late?

damnrunner · Jul 27, 2009

I cant log in for that but we should also ask where their chariot is - they were exploring near us earlier. If they are in a good position they could have very good odds on razing dragon tears. or at least could help by pillaging a few roads.

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