Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[KaTiON_PT]

It's still a way to source the information, in case someone else wants to verify/update it later.

 

[Noriad2]

Why do you think there is government regulation in the first place making housing shortages? the very people who profit from the shortage are the ones buying the laws in the first place. You can't separate economic power and political power. This is why socialists argue for the ownership of the means of production, so that our political power becomes equal across all people in a democracy, rather than resting in the hands of the few who own businesses.

Socialism (esp. the communist kind) indeed means ownership of capital by a nebulous "collective".

That is very easy to make happen in a western democratic country: you start a foundation, call it "the Collective" and make everybody a member who wants to be. Then the work of every member becomes owned by the Collective and redistributed to every member according to his needs.

This somehow doesn't happen despite many people being in favor of "socialism". Why? because theft is such an essential part of socialism the two words become synonymous in many cases. The socialist never talks about what he himself can contribute to society, his main product is propaganda, which usually consists of a avalanche of accusations against other people, and thus it is justified ("social justice") to steal. But he seldom uses that word for his own actions, he talks about transferring other people's wealth to a nebulous "collective" and then to him.

Problem is, a society based on theft is not stable and will collapse eventually, making the majority poorer and a handful of socialists richer. Socialism and criminality overlap a lot if you look past the propaganda.

I always laugh when I see rich college kids argue for socialism. They seem oblivious that in case of a true socialist revolution, rich college kids will get labeled "privileged" and put in concentration camps (or worse, the Red Khmer executed people for being "intellectuals", which meant in practice they executed everybody who wore glasses).

It is just as silly as white people arguing for "more diversity" in the form of mass immigration from third world countries, and be completely oblivious to the fact that once their country is sufficiently "diversified" they as white people will become second rank citizens in what used to be their own country.

 

[tmv]

The gap between the rich and poor has grown significantly in recent history

You mean it's bigger now than during Feudalism (the order we had before "capitalism")?

and the chance of a poor making it rich has evaporated. There is no 'New Players', only old players who have awful failson children that inherit their wealth.

If you mean the last few decades, I think I pointed out the reason for that. Blame the government.

The world has gotten worse as we've moved to more free markets, free trade paradigm.

Yes, it's so much worse than being in a http://www.weltum.de/weltum/img/Bun..._Berlin,_Warteschlange_vor_Backwarenladen.jpg

We're about to hit a significant downturn in the market, probably worse than 2008.

Could happen. But - as I pointed out - the current economic system is far removed from a free market. And the crisis of 2008 was - at least partially - caused by government intervention. Remember Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac?

The politicians aren't corrupt. They represent the interests of the rich successfully. That is their job.

Well, if that is the case, we need to increase government intervention so that they can represent the interests of the rich even more - nationalising entire industries is certainly going to help.

 

[raxo2222]

What do you think about Scandinavian political/economic model?
They call themselves "Social Democracy"
I know Scandinavian countries have highest quality of life.
But they have high taxes and export a lot of stuff to cover their programs. Also it is extreme immigrant magnet.

 

[tmv]

What do you think about Scandinavian political/economic model?

I'm not Scandinavian, unlike Toffer. And he wasn't very happy about Norwegian politics the last time he spoke about that here IIRC.

They call themselves "Social Democracy"

A well-known term in pretty much all of Europe, I think. Although that term doesn't seem to mean the same thing everywhere (or even at all times in the same country - the current policies of the German social democrats are far removed from their policies in the 1970s)

I know Scandinavian countries have highest quality of life.
But they have high taxes and export a lot of stuff to cover their programs.

That's the problem. As long as wealth is already there (or better: constantly generated without any need to worry) you don't need to worry that much about economic policy. Even an inefficient (read: socialist ) system can survive if it can just suck a healthy and thriving economy, and if that economy can survive that, so much the better. But you better hope that there isn't a change that renders this economy obsolete (like oil some time in the future).

Also it is extreme immigrant magnet.

Yes, that's another problem. As a libertarian I cannot speak out against open borders in general, but strong social systems seem to be incompatible with an immigration-oriented society. At some point you have to choose. And in case of Germany the social system is unchangeable (codified in stone). And in that case there is a problem.

 

[raxo2222]

I'm not Scandinavian, unlike Toffer. And he wasn't very happy about Norwegian politics the last time he spoke about that here IIRC.


A well-known term in pretty much all of Europe, I think. Although that term doesn't seem to mean the same thing everywhere (or even at all times in the same country - the current policies of the German social democrats are far removed from their policies in the 1970s)


That's the problem. As long as wealth is already there (or better: constantly generated without any need to worry) you don't need to worry that much about economic policy. Even an inefficient (read: socialist ) system can survive if it can just suck a healthy and thriving economy, and if that economy can survive that, so much the better. But you better hope that there isn't a change that renders this economy obsolete (like oil some time in the future).


Yes, that's another problem. As a libertarian I cannot speak out against open borders in general, but strong social systems seem to be incompatible with an immigration-oriented society. At some point you have to choose. And in case of Germany the social system is unchangeable (codified in stone). And in that case there is a problem.

What do you think about Switzerland?
Do they even have any first world problems?
Japan an other developed Asian countries are obsessed with work. Also there are some demographic issues in Japan.

Switzerland is small country, It seems like smaller population means its less likely to run into problems.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

Socialism is when government does stuff, and the more stuff the government does, the socialist-er it is.

/s

 

[KaTiON_PT]

A bit tangential to the discussion but I like that the mod doesn't have civics that are outright called "Fascism" or "Social Democracy". Personally I feel that through the combination of different civics one can roleplay each different political -isms.

It would be nice if the game could generate a flavor government name out of said combinations like in Stellaris and their ethos/civics.

 

[raxo2222]

Socialism is when government does stuff, and the more stuff the government does, the socialist-er it is.

/s

So goverment should do only security, infrastructure and maybe space program.
Good thing, that transhumans doesn't have needs

/s

 

[raxo2222]

A bit tangential to the discussion but I like that the mod doesn't have civics that are outright called "Fascism" or "Social Democracy". Personally I feel that through the combination of different civics one can roleplay each different political -isms.

It would be nice if the game could generate a flavor government name out of said combinations like in Stellaris and their ethos/civics.

It allows for some combinations, that would quickly fall apart in real world though.

 

[tmv]

What do you think about Switzerland?
Do they even have any first world problems?

Switzerland is a rather successful example of a strong (direct) democracy, a free economy (one of the freest in Europe) and an absolutely strange form of government (the strongest parties - taken together until they have a majority - are forced to form a coalition regardless of their political positions). Although if the cohesive forces in the EU ever get the upper hand again, Switzerland could get a problem with the fact that they are surrounded, and forced to comply with many EU standards without having a vote.

Japan an other developed Asian countries are obsessed with work. Also there are some demographic issues in Japan.

If by "some demographic issues" you mean the highest aging in the world (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan) you are certainly right. They also have the highest acceptance of roboters. Coincidence?

Switzerland is small country, It seems like smaller population means its less likely to run into problems.

Even with this part of the world having become (more or less) peaceful, there are still a few downsides to a small country. Diplomatic protection is difficult for such a country. But if the violence in the world goes down, so do almost all downsides of small countries. OTOH in an unstable world you get very little protection.

Socialism is when government does stuff, and the more stuff the government does, the socialist-er it is.

Mostly. And if you restrict this statement to stuff that the government doesn't absolutely have to do (providing inner and outer security, a court system, infrastructure, a diplomatic service and probably a currency), you could even take away the sarcasm tag.

So goverment should do only security, infrastructure and maybe space program.

Ever heard of SpaceX?

It allows for some combinations, that would quickly fall apart in real world though.

You mean we couldn't have a marxist political system with corporate welfare / agriculture? Say it ain't so!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Political parties are the downfall of any government which is perhaps why the US Constitution says you should not have them.

 

[Toffer90]

Unless @Toffer90 is even more magic and can introduce type of link, that after clicking opens wikipedia or any site it was leading to.

That's easy, in PPIO you can right click the title inside the pedia labeled "Wiki", and it will open your default browser to the caveman2Cosmos forum.

I'm not Scandinavian, unlike Toffer. And he wasn't very happy about Norwegian politics the last time he spoke about that here IIRC.

There's much about Norwegian politics that makes me shake my head with resignation, especially regarding geopolitical awareness (or the lack of it); but most other countries are the same for me in that regard.
I'm quite satisfied with the structure of our democracy and with our social security systems.
Norway is far from perfect, but I would have a hard time pointing at another country and say it in overall imo is politically better than Norway when all is said and done.
The other Scandinavian countries, as well as most Germanic countries, England and Canada, Australia are quite equal (some of them more than others depending on political topic) to Norway in many of the political aspects that I like about Norway.
Western Europe (including most of the commonwealth) and the Scandinavian countries are not all that different politically.

 

[Toffer90]

That's easy, in PPIO you can right click the title inside the pedia labeled "Wiki", and it will open your default browser to the caveman2Cosmos forum.

I was a bit hasty, I can set it up in python quite easily, but every single game object with a wikipedia link would need a dedicated new text xml that only contains the URL and is named systematically so that the python pedia code can easily look it up for any game object that exist.
e.g.
Pedia page for <Type>TECH_LANGUAGE</Type>
would after setting up the history text look for a text XML by the name of
<Type>TXT_KEY_LANGUAGE_URL</Type>

<engliish>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language</english>
<french>https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langage</french>​

Then it could add the link beneath the history text as a clickable label that spell something like " wikipedia link ".

 

[KaTiON_PT]

I was a bit hasty, I can set it up in python quite easily, but every single game object with a wikipedia link would need a dedicated new text xml that only contains the URL and is named systematically so that the python pedia code can easily look it up for any game object that exist.
e.g.
Pedia page for <Type>TECH_LANGUAGE</Type>
would after setting up the history text look for a text XML by the name of
<Type>TXT_KEY_LANGUAGE_URL</Type>

<engliish>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language</english>
<french>https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langage</french>​

Then it could add the link beneath the history text as a clickable label that spell something like " wikipedia link ".

I could do that while I work on each individual technology pedia. Is that save compatible though?

EDIT: And is it possible to make it accept multiple Wikipedia links?

 

[Toffer90]

I could do that while I work on each individual technology pedia. Is that save compatible though?

EDIT: And is it possible to make it accept multiple Wikipedia links?

It is save compatible, multiple links are a bit more tricky...

If the links are set up in this structure I could make multiple links work too.
<english>Language|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language||Communication|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication</english>

So two consecutive " | " signs separates different links and one " | " separates the link from the name of the link.

In Pedia:

History/Background:

Blablablablabla
Blablablablabla
Blablablablabla​

Wikipedia links: Language, Communication

 

[KaTiON_PT]

As long as it doesn't make things too difficult for you... One link can suffice as the "main" source of information.

 

[Toffer90]

As long as it doesn't make things too difficult for you... One link can suffice as the "main" source of information.

One link should be enough in most cases, I'll make code for multiple links, because, why not.

The code I'll write will accept that there is no label name like so:
<engliish>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language</english>
or so:
<engliish>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language||https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication</english>
or so:
<engliish>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language||Communication|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication</english>

It will call the links " Link 1 " & " Link 2 ", and so on, if there is no given name.

 

[Yudishtira]

Do you have an example where even one of these three horrors I mentioned were committed by the free (sometimes called capitalist) nations?

The list goes on and on of psychopathic dictators and paramilitaries that have been handed power and been maintained in power by the CIA and similar outfits.
Pinochet (the original September 11), Chun, Marcos, Saddam, the Duvaliers, the Contras, Noriega... there is probably an example for every Central American country, but no corner of the world is safe.

There is no way I can make this discussion relevant here, so have the last word by all means, and then can we please drop it?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Mostly. And if you restrict this statement to stuff that the government doesn't absolutely have to do (providing inner and outer security, a court system, infrastructure, a diplomatic service and probably a currency), you could even take away the sarcasm tag.

Even the military is a socialist venture. Communism or Marxist Socialism is a very different term to Socialism. And it has NOTHING to do with communal ownership of all things. It is purely the decision to have the government organize and provide a service at absolutely no attempt to profit (actually more an attempt to minimize costs and complaints, thus provide the service in as efficient a manner as possible without attempting to stab the customer in the back with hidden expenses and schemes, marketing and even more nefarious, to motivate them to engage in the service.) Some things may be best applied to the free market. Other things should clearly be socialized, where free market industry has proven to become parasitical on society because the motive of profit outweighs the motive of well-being of the citizenry.

There's simply nothing about this that has anything to do with denying anyone the legal and moral right to personal property, but it does certainly demand that all pay a fair share for the collective - and even a heavily free market society pays taxes on a sliding scale. That doesn't mean the sliding scale has to coddle the wealthy so as to inspire them to invest into ways they can capture even larger shares of the markets that exist. If we didn't go back and forth on this subject in terms of national policy, they wouldn't feel they could simply weather the storm of when those with some moral backbone are actually in power and strike back by hoarding what they have during these 'unfair times'. Then we wouldn't feel like we're all going to go down with the ship if the captains' asses aren't kissed enough. It's a long road to health from here and we're probably going to economically implode and legislatively collapse as a nation and most of the world with us before it can ever get better.