Caveman2Cosmos

[Aquila SPQR]

I understand this - I doubt that any modder would include in his mod (which is not an easy thing to do - making mods is a rather hard work and done for free in modder's free time) something what he consider ridiculous. And don't get me wrong - I truly believe C2C is the pinnacle of Civ IV mods, probably the best ever, so I appreciate your work. Only this one thing makes me feel frustrated and I'm really surprised you decided to go this way - but of course - you mod, your choice.

Right now I'm thinking of modding slightly your mod (I'm not a professional modder but I made few changes to previous mods I played). Is it possible to make these culture wonders available only to their "rightful" civs? Just as in old Civ only Romans were able to build praetorians - make these culture wonders available only to their "rightful" civs.

And second thing - don't you think that making this optional would increase players' satisfaction? Who likes your idea - plays with it enabled, who likes old way (like me and some others as I see) - plays the old way. Such option would improve this mod IMO.

 

[strategyonly]

No offense taken, it seems that only you took it that way. We're just pointing out what we dislike about it, saying "then don't play it" is childish IMO. I just expressed my opinion that this option is, in my humble opinion and according to Civ IV mechanics, stupid.
.

So saying dont play is: childish(IYO), BUT calling C2C modders: STUPID isn't (Anyways ENOUGH of that)

As DH said "IMO" as you say was considered but is is a waste of time to do so(IOO), but feel free to place your mod in OUR modmod section (as only it can be done, per Admins or it will no exist) i have no problem with that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

But it's impossible to "rid of the initial choice of civ". There are civs which have their unique city names and are defined (destined) to be Egyptians, Romans, Russians etc. In this case we're going to have Roman empire with Roman leaders, Roman cities and Roman flags unable to build praetorians because Sioux civ with Sioux leader, Sioux flags and Sioux city names somehow got it first.

But it seems it has to be like that. In recent times I often find something that is marvelous at first but then has something that totally pushes me back and make me think "WTH?!".
In Europa Universalis IV everything is awesome except one thing. The first time I saw "shattered retreat" was also my last time I played it. I just have no desire to play a game with such idiotic thing.

C2C is, at least for me, an ultimate Civ - this is how Civ V should've look like. But this thing (playing as for example Romans, building Roman cities but being unable to build Roman UUs because someone else built this world wonder)... it ruins this mod for me. And only one question comes to mind... OH, GOD, WHYYYYYYY?!

Thats the same way i feel actually. I love everything else about this mod(the depth, alternate timelines, galatic map), but the weird quirk with UU/UB totally turns me off.

You might be pleased to know there are some plans to address this eventually. There are actually some higher priorities but this does kinda bug more than just you guys. What we each propose as a solution varies of course but I'm of the opinion that we should be able to adopt cultures as we go. This should change the flag, the name, quite a few things about the civilization, and should interweave with whatever revolution mechanism we'll be using at that point. There's a lot of steps to take before this can manifest though so much further discussion on the subject is fairly premature at this stage.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

You might be pleased to know there are some plans to address this eventually. There are actually some higher priorities but this does kinda bug more than just you guys. What we each propose as a solution varies of course but I'm of the opinion that we should be able to adopt cultures as we go. This should change the flag, the name, quite a few things about the civilization, and should interweave with whatever revolution mechanism we'll be using at that point. There's a lot of steps to take before this can manifest though so much further discussion on the subject is fairly premature at this stage.

So your choices in game will determine your civilization rather than picking it at the start? That is really a fantastic idea.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So your choices in game will determine your civilization rather than picking it at the start? That is really a fantastic idea.

Exactly

 

[strategyonly]

so your choices in game will determine your civilization rather than picking it at the start? That is really a fantastic idea.

b i n g o

 

[Aquila SPQR]

What we each propose as a solution varies of course but I'm of the opinion that we should be able to adopt cultures as we go. This should change the flag, the name, quite a few things about the civilization, and should interweave with whatever revolution mechanism we'll be using at that point.

But what about players (like me) who'd like to play as specific culture? There's no guarantee that I'll be able to meet all requirements needed to create for example Egyptian culture before someone else. When I play I use my own city names - for example while playing Egyptians I use ancient Egyptian names and playing as Romans - Roman (Roma, Antivm etc.). What then? And moreover - what if someone would like to play against specific civs? I don't like the idea of playing against Inuit Empire or Aborigines Empire. For me it's kinda silly. That's why when we started our first C2C MP game we chose manually opponents for the first time ever, because my friend also disliked this idea. In this case we'll have no option to choose our opponents because they would be created by researching certain techs faster or slower and having certain terrain nearby (plus some other variables I think).

I think that it would be best if your idea (a revolutionary one) would be optional. This would satisfy everyone.

Oh, and I think there's a difference between calling someone stupid and calling his idea "stupid". I do not consider you stupid in any way, moreover - your modding skills are far greater than mine so surely you can't be stupid D). I just can't understand why you decided to implement something that ruins IMO playability.

And actually I think I have a better idea than meddling with mod files. Culture wonders are wonders (buildings) - so I assume I can just place them in "proper" cities with Worlbuilder's help. I don't care about additional cultures, Egyptians can have additional Zulu culture if they have also a proper Egyptian one. That would solve IMO the problem, at least in SP.

 

[Cosmic Fox]

You can say what you don't like but be better if you didn't seemingly attack the Modders. I personally don't find much at all wrong with this Mod, if something seems off balance or what ever I know it will be addressed eventually. Best Mod I ever played for certain I don't see a reason to knock anyone for what C2C has included.

I agree Strategy if someone doesn't like it then don't play it, a big mistake but hey what else can one say? lol

 

[Aquila SPQR]

One next thought - imagine a situation - I built a culture wonder and thus gained specific culture. My empire grows and has 20 old, big cities. Then suddenly enemy captures my city where I build this culture wonder. And... what, my entire empire forgot which culture it is? Became cultureless? My old cities which were few centuries under my culture suddenly forgot how to build UUs anymore?

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I agree with you Aquila, but Thunderbird was saying they have a solution down the road for this I think.

 

[Cosmic Fox]

One next thought - imagine a situation - I built a culture wonder and thus gained specific culture. My empire grows and has 20 old, big cities. Then suddenly enemy captures my city where I build this culture wonder. And... what, my entire empire forgot which culture it is? Became cultureless? My old cities which were few centuries under my culture suddenly forgot how to build UUs anymore?

I have been playing C2C since version 13 or 14, I have never experienced any issues with cultures. I understand what you are on about, but I usually have 4+ cultures in my empire.

The point is this has been noted and will be addressed at some point, I get pissed playing a civ and the AI builds my culture. But let's all relax and calmly discuss things without slapping someone else! (Am I sane or off base here?)

 

[strategyonly]

One next thought - imagine a situation - I built a culture wonder and thus gained specific culture. My empire grows and has 20 old, big cities. Then suddenly enemy captures my city where I build this culture wonder. And... what, my entire empire forgot which culture it is? Became cultureless? My old cities which were few centuries under my culture suddenly forgot how to build UUs anymore?

I agree with you Aquila, but Thunderbird was saying they have a solution down the road for this I think.

Again no offense, but your talking about one (1) unit in the whole game of C2C, or 1 building I personally dont see that as a "mis-step, IMPO, especially since you can get way more culture units and may just maybe better ones, because you are now "trained" in the advance procedure of warfare of that (culture). You get all the other units, again its just ONE unit/building (we dont do buildings anyways, i just put that there to better aquaite itself that way.
If you play this, for, lets say until modern age, you really wont see any difference that much, except for the expertise the C2C modders have put their blood sweat and sometimes tears into this great mod.
Actually HYDRo is the modder that changed all this, so i guess its better to let HIM say/write more about this, i hope you and all have a Great day, and as i always say, "Just Have Fun!"

 

[Thunderbrd]

One next thought - imagine a situation - I built a culture wonder and thus gained specific culture. My empire grows and has 20 old, big cities. Then suddenly enemy captures my city where I build this culture wonder. And... what, my entire empire forgot which culture it is? Became cultureless? My old cities which were few centuries under my culture suddenly forgot how to build UUs anymore?

Yes that weakness is also noted but we're waiting for some very advanced coding development to take place that will enable our 'best solution' to be implemented. This solution involves making these individual cultures spread and expand much like crime and pollution do in the mod now, or somewhat akin to the original Civilization culture. It won't ALL be based on one all powerful wonder by the time this structure is finally worked out. This is our solution for now and the point is to enable a more dynamic evolving world where culture is concerned.

Honestly, you must admit - playing one single civilization from the dawn of time all the way through to the future is about the most unrealistic element of civ in all its many versions and mods. We seek a civilization definition that evolves and changes over time as it always has in the real world, one where we recognize that a civilization's traits and features - what makes a civilization what it is - is more a product of the environment and history of the people than it is some kind of overlord's choice (though an overlord player may well be able to 'influence' what happens there.)

Rather than playing the game as, say, the United States, throughout all the many ancient eras it never took part in historically, asking ourselves 'what if Americans had been around from the beginning', we'd rather ask ourselves, 'what will happen if and when the Americans emerge in THIS world'.

 

[Vukovlad]

Something I am missing are tunnels, that is a way to build roads and railroads through (or across) mountains.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Something I am missing are tunnels, that is a way to build roads and railroads through (or across) mountains.

you ne3ed to have select the "Usable Mountains" option - which is on by default and may have been hidden in recent releases. Then you need the Mountaineering tech. Naturally you also need the money to build it also.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

Yes that weakness is also noted but we're waiting for some very advanced coding development to take place that will enable our 'best solution' to be implemented. This solution involves making these individual cultures spread and expand much like crime and pollution do in the mod now, or somewhat akin to the original Civilization culture. It won't ALL be based on one all powerful wonder by the time this structure is finally worked out. This is our solution for now and the point is to enable a more dynamic evolving world where culture is concerned.

Honestly, you must admit - playing one single civilization from the dawn of time all the way through to the future is about the most unrealistic element of civ in all its many versions and mods. We seek a civilization definition that evolves and changes over time as it always has in the real world, one where we recognize that a civilization's traits and features - what makes a civilization what it is - is more a product of the environment and history of the people than it is some kind of overlord's choice (though an overlord player may well be able to 'influence' what happens there.)

Rather than playing the game as, say, the United States, throughout all the many ancient eras it never took part in historically, asking ourselves 'what if Americans had been around from the beginning', we'd rather ask ourselves, 'what will happen if and when the Americans emerge in THIS world'.

Concept of culture based not on World Wonder but on this crime/pollution mechanism - sound good. Because current system creates more illogical situations and problems than vanilla one.

And actually playing one and predefined civ through entire history is what I like the most in this game. I enjoy starting as Roman tribe (people who in future will become Romans) and guiding them through time up to modern times ("what if Rome had survived" scenario). I want to play as Romans - so I'd like to be sure that I'll be able to play as them. And that's why I dislike the idea of someone else becoming Romans just because they researched some tech or built WW one turn faster than me. I also never played any other civ than Romans, Egyptians and Russians. I have completely no desire to play as Inuits, Germans, Americans or Persians. Just as I have completely no desire to play against Native Americans, Inuits, Polynesians or Aborigines. And from what I see there will be no guarantee I could do this in your future, completed verson of C2C. And that worries me.

 

[Vukovlad]

you ne3ed to have select the "Usable Mountains" option - which is on by default and may have been hidden in recent releases. Then you need the Mountaineering tech. Naturally you also need the money to build it also.

Ok thanks

 

[Thunderbrd]

Concept of culture based not on World Wonder but on this crime/pollution mechanism - sound good. Because current system creates more illogical situations and problems than vanilla one.

And actually playing one and predefined civ through entire history is what I like the most in this game. I enjoy starting as Roman tribe (people who in future will become Romans) and guiding them through time up to modern times ("what if Rome had survived" scenario). I want to play as Romans - so I'd like to be sure that I'll be able to play as them. And that's why I dislike the idea of someone else becoming Romans just because they researched some tech or built WW one turn faster than me. I also never played any other civ than Romans, Egyptians and Russians. I have completely no desire to play as Inuits, Germans, Americans or Persians. Just as I have completely no desire to play against Native Americans, Inuits, Polynesians or Aborigines. And from what I see there will be no guarantee I could do this in your future, completed verson of C2C. And that worries me.

True... no guarantee at all. However... you are a strategic human mind playing towards a goal... which is more likely to reach that goal - you or an AI who hardly cares which 'culture' they end up adopting so long as whatever they adopt is the best of the options they have at that time? Besides... the system will ask you to open your mind and you may find more value in ending up playing whatever you least expected to and finding ways to utilize the options and abilities that least expected destiny has granted you. Perhaps once fully established, we could still revert to creating a game option that would allow those who prefer a less realistic, less immersive, static method to have their cake and eat it too. Usually where there is a player desiring something, we figure out a way to provide it... it's just a matter of how long it will take to offer it. In this case... a LONG ways off.

 

[Yudishtira]

True... no guarantee at all. However... you are a strategic human mind playing towards a goal... which is more likely to reach that goal - you or an AI who hardly cares which 'culture' they end up adopting so long as whatever they adopt is the best of the options they have at that time? Besides... the system will ask you to open your mind and you may find more value in ending up playing whatever you least expected to and finding ways to utilize the options and abilities that least expected destiny has granted you. Perhaps once fully established, we could still revert to creating a game option that would allow those who prefer a less realistic, less immersive, static method to have their cake and eat it too. Usually where there is a player desiring something, we figure out a way to provide it... it's just a matter of how long it will take to offer it. In this case... a LONG ways off.

I have to say for a short one-para post that is just awesome...TB you have excelled yourself!

 

[Reisk@]

Hi guys, this gigantic mod looks great. One problem in the start, i can't find "no future era" in the custom game start menu and game then starts with no future era.

How can i enable future era ?