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CBob04 Achtung Panzer!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by CommandoBob, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    The game is a Over. Conquest Victory achieved in 1545 AD; Emperor Difficulty; Standard Map; Continential landmass.

    Post 2 is the backstory, such that it is.

    Post 3 are the special rules and conditions for this game.

    Post #4 is the starting save.

    Current Roster:
    1. CommandoBob
    2. TheOverseer714
    3. Sasquatch (lurking)
    4. Tad Empire_0_o (away)
    5. ThinkTank
    6. Cerenkov (away).
    7. open
     
  2. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    Sometime back Ansar made the comment that he liked games with Modern Ear weapons. So do I, but most games don't get that far. So I toyed around with various ideas on how to have a game that featured Modern Age weapons.

    The delay from the end of CBob03 to CBob04 was because I was finishing my first Hall of Fame submission. Monarch, Huge (Pangea), Conquest with India (I selected a random civ). It was my third solo game at Monarch.
     
  3. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    Civ III Conquests 1.22f
    Victory: Conquest
    Level: Emperor
    Opponents: random
    Barbarians: raging
    Land mass: Continents
    Water: 70%
    Map size: standard
    Age: 4 Billion
    Climate: normal
    Temperature: temperate
    Normal victory conditions are ‘On’.


    Civilization: Germany
    Let me explain why Germany. Yes, CBob03 was played as Germans, but since every city we built was named after a German composer, it didn't have the same feel as a normal game. Richard Wagner was the capital in that game, not Berlin. Bonn, Hamburg, Leipzig and other places did not exist. So I don't feel that this is a redo. Since the city names will be so different I won't have any trouble in keeping the games separate, even though we are playing the Germans in back-to-back games.

    Second, Germany has an excellent UU for this type of game. The Panzer is a souped up tank and has a movement of 3 instead of the normal 2. Panzer Armies will have a move of 4. So do Armies of Modern Armor. And Calvary. While Modern Armor hits harder than Panzers, it requires three techs in the Modern Age (Ecology, Rocketry and Synthetic Fibers) and one more resource, aluminum. Also, a Panzer costs the same as a Tank (100 shields); Moden Armor, 120 shields.

    I considered playing as America, but I don't know anyone who really undestands how Air Warfare works in this game. I certainly don't. So I avoided America entirely.

    Special Rules
    We don't start beating up on the world until we build our first Panzer. But not when we learn how. We have to wait until it is built. Now, since we can build the Panzer in the Industrial Age and still have four required techs left to learn (Scientific Methods, Atomic Theory, Electronics and Flight) we also must be in the Modern Age.

    Just to repeat: Panzers and Modern Age. Lets just hope that we have oil and rubber at the right time.

    We might want to make a beeline to Motorized Transportation and then pick up the four other techs while we build up our Panzer forces. Something to think about.

    Until that time, we will have no more than 12 cities (combined total of cities we build and cities we might capture). That should be enough for us to build our Forbidden Palace.

    We must have this 12th city by 10 AD. If we don't, we'll just continue with the cities we have.

    Once we get our 12th/last city built, we will go defensive. We'll fight inside our borders and just across our borders and in unclaimed territory. We won't be crossing borders to attack a city, however (until we get that first Panzer!). If we have an ROP, we can use that ROP to hunt down and kill enemy units.

    Now, if it is after 10 AD and we lose a city in a war, we may reclaim it. I really don't expect that to happen, however.

    We will most likely have Ancient Age warfare as we seek to establish our place in the world. Since we are looking for cities, we would try not to eliminate anyone too early in the game.

    We can always get wars started, if it works to our advantage, even if we have our 12 cities.

    Some Ramifications of the Special Rules
    With only 12 cities, then only 3 armies. Three armies would let us build the Pentagon, which allows larger armies (4 units instead of 3).

    We could rush Heroic Epic and Military Academy with two MGLs. Heroic Epic sounds good, since it increases the odds of MGLs. Military Academy would not be a good choice, since it would just let us build Armies from scratch. We should have a good number of MGLs to make Armies. Building an Army, when we city-limited on them, just doesn't make sense.

    We'll have to be careful of what we research. I doubt that Germany will be the tech leader, but we can the tech broker.

    Golden Age Ramblings
    It would be very fitting for the first Panzer victory to kick off our Golden Age, but that may not happen. It depends on the wonders we build and when we build them.

    Theory of Evolution (2 free techs) is a SCI Wonder; Sun Tzu's (free barracks) and Leonardo's Workshop (cheaper upgrades) are both MIL and both are available in the Early Middle Ages. It would be very nice to have both of them, but Sun Tzu's seems to be a bit better. We'll need veteran units more than cheap upgrades, I think.

    Let's assume that we learn Motorized Transport early and then start of Scientific Method, leaving only SciMeth, Atomic Theory, Electronics and Flight to be learned in the Industrial Age. We begin to build Panzers.

    We build ToE once we learn SciMeth and learn Atomic Theory and Electronics for free. Our Wonder induced Golden Age begins. We would have 20 turns of increased productivity to make vPanzers and 20 turns of extra commerce to help learn Flight. We could begin our expansion in our Golden Age.

    Of course, if someone else builds Sun Tzu's or Leonardo's, then the Panzers will kick off our Golden Age.

    We would want to avoid the Great Library, since it is an early SCI wonder.

    CommandoBob’s Semi-Standards
    These just took up too much space, so I wrapped them in SPOILER tags.
    Spoiler :

    These things have helped me to focus my attention better on the game mechanics. I will be doing these things. I ask that anyone who wants to join be willing to do these their first two turnsets. The key is willing, not required.

    Pre turn Strategy Post
    This can be brief or elaborate, depending on the state of the game.

    Military Strength
    We've got to be strong to keep our enemies at bay. It helps to know what we've got.

    At the end of a turnset, just report what our current military strength is. This can be gotten from the military advisor or from CivAssist II. It would look like this:

    03 Warriors
    16 Knights
    10 Mace

    The breakdown of conscript/regular/veteran/elite is not really needed here. I tend to just order the units as the Military Advisor does, so the order of what units comes first tends to change through out a game.

    City Builds
    For each city we have, list their name, size, growth in turns and build in turns. It would look like this:

    London (4) grows in 4, spear in 2.
    Paris (6) zero growth, temple in 4.

    City Build Recap
    This is just a list of what builds are being built by which city. The list would contain the name of the build, the count of how many are being built, followed by the names of the cities building that item. It would look like this:

    Temple [2] (Paris and Rome)
    rSpear [1] (London)
    vSpear [3] (Mecca, Trondheim and Athens)

    At some point in time both these city lists lose their importance. But with only a handful of cities for a couple of ages, we'll probably need to keep a good eye on what are cities are doing most of the game. So for this game, let's try to do the City Build list each turnset.

    These lists do take extra time, but they have helped me to see things I might otherwise have missed, like building too many aqueducts or too few settlers. So I would ask that the players try these for two turnsets.

    And of course, all of these can be combined into one post. I tend to review the cities and military and then develop some plans for the turns that are upcoming.

    And just to say it again, these semi-standards are suggestions. They have helped me and they might help you. Do not let them stop you for signing up.

    Unit Naming
    In the early turns, up to 1000 BC or so, I find it helpful to name the units we create; worker, warrior, spear, etc. I'm not too creative in my naming, however. WorkerA, Warrior01 and Spear03 are precise, but very dull. Anyway, with the first turns needing so much attention, it helps me to focus by naming units. After 1000 BC the need really doesn't exist.

    Player's Skill Level/Difficulty Level
    I don't care.

    If you're new to the Forum, new to the game, new to Succession Games, it really doesn't matter to me.

    What does matter is behaving in a responsible manner.

    One of the best ways to improve your solo games is to join an SG. A lot of things have to be discussed during the game, including city placements, grand strategy, tech research, foreign affairs and balancing the budget, plus things like worker orders. Lots of ways to improve your play.

    Plus, since each turnset is only 10 turns long (and sometimes less), even if your last game was on Chieftain it is possible to play well at this level, given enough planning. My first SG was at Monarch; before that I had only played at Chieftain. So, yeah, I think it is possible. :D

    Play Times
    A normal SG has a 24/48 pace. Twenty-four hours to post a Get and 48 hours to play. I can't keep that schedule. Instead, we'll allow 48 hours for a Get and 96 hours to play.

    Here I am very flexible. Sometimes RL is very tough and you can't play. Fine; ask for a skip or swap.

    SG's can take several months to finish. Players, through no fault of their own, are forced to drop out. Very understandable. Just let the team know.


    SG Standards
    If you're unsure of how to play in an SG, check out How to Play a Succession Game, a sticky in this sub-forum. In it I cover most of what is expected of general behavior in an SG.

    IMPORTANT EDIT/UPDATE:
    In Post #157 I increased the city limit from 12 to 16 cities.
     
  4. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    This is our starting position:

    Achtung Panzer! At Start



    And the save is >>HERE<<.


    This save file has passed the Hall of Fame 4000 BC test.
     
  5. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

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    Why only 12 cities? Why not 20, say (OCN=20 for standard map)?
     
  6. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    :confused:
    I thought that 12 was the OCN for standard, not 20.

    But mostly it was to make the game more of a challenge. Without a city limit, we could expand like crazy, and the AI wouldn't have a chance. This way, the AIs are in the game much longer.
     
  7. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

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    I looked in the C3C editor, it says 20 for standard. IIRC, you can build the FP when you're at 1/2 OCN.

    Edit: to add to the confusion, I just read in the War academy that the FP requires 8 cities on standard map.
     
  8. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    12 seems fair. I would say we will still want Military Academy, as it has other benefits besides building armies. It boosts the strength of armies. And, once we get to the Modern Age and begin fighting and capturing more cities, we'll be able to have more armies. What about governments and city spacing? With only 12, we'll want to maximize their size, maybe a little looser, say CxxxC. Republics without specialist farms are unknown to me, how well would that work? Maybe it'll be okay if we maximize every city for science output, with Libs and Unis and Markets and Banks. Sounds fun, but I'm SG-swamped. Maybe it will be a quiet SG during all those builder years. Pencil me in..
     
  9. killerkid

    killerkid Prince

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    I don't think I'll join, I am pretty busy in RL.
    A couple of lurker questions though:

    Do you cave to an AI demand?
    Does your variant mean no warring ever until Panzers??
    What about barbs?
     
  10. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    We can have wars, just not offensive ones, once we get 12 cities built, there can be no capturing cities. Basically, we can defend our cities and territory. Same goes for barbs. Demands will be mostly met, unless they demand a city or a resource that is critical. That's how I interpret things.
     
  11. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Chieftain

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    This sounds cool to me Commando. I'd like to join. As for the GA coming via a wonder build. Addmitedly I don't shoot for many wonders but I also don't recall getting a GA due to a wonder build since the original CIVIII. Honestly I thought they removed that feature with the upgrades... :p .

    Concerning the Industrial Age research path. I'm pretty locked into the lower path. Building TOE for the free techs and building Hoovers (If I have fresh water). We can build a Panzier force quickly enough to take our continent I would think. I would of course go with what the team decided.

    Should be a fun variant.
     
  12. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    As long as we don't build a SCI and a MIL wonder, we are fine. The only Wonder that would really matter is ToE, and it's not a gamebreaker. In fact, none are. Sun Tzu's is nice, but we can get away with only a few barracks until the late IA, and by then, our finances should support them. Think of it as a 12CC until the Modern Age.
     
  13. Tad Empire_0_o

    Tad Empire_0_o GAHH... Puberty

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    Hey guys! Can I join Bob? :)
     
  14. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    If there are enough players interested, I will move to the reserve bench, and stay on as a lurker/advisor. I can always pinch-hit if needed.
     
  15. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    I'd hadn't planned on a government just yet. Republic is my first response, but that is mostly just a reflex. I figured we would discuss governments as the game unfolded.

    On city spacing, yeah, with only 12 we'll have to careful of where we build. Rivers will be important, so we won't have to build aqueducts (and pay their upkeep), but that can't be a limiting factor in where we build. I think we can go CxxC and still have 12 tiles for each city to work.

    Good questions. I did not consider anything about AI demands.

    :hmm:

    :trouble:

    We are not forced to cave into AI demands for cash, tech or anything else. If the AI wants to go to war with us before we get Panzers, we will defend ourselves. If they come demanding something of us we're not ready to give and our refusal leads to them declaring war, well, that's not our fault. In that case, well, war is war, and killing units, making Military Alliances versus that AI and capturing/razing the AIs cities is to be expected. We ain't gonnabe pansies, hiding in the shadows.

    We can make war before Panzers. In the Ancient Age we may have to make war in order to expand. Later, but still before Panzers, we can declare war but we are limited in how we make war.

    (This is really a good question. I wasn't for sure I had explained this very well before and now I know I didn't.)

    Once we get to our city limit and before we have Panzers I see two kinds of war we could be involved in. Wars we start and wars the AI starts with us.

    And again, if the AI declares war on us, (and we haven't been agitating them, either!) because we refused to meet their demands or they just went crazy, then we engage in a normal war. We go to where they live, kill their units, capture their slaves and acquire their cities. Since we can't have more than 12 at that point in the game, we have to decide if we keep the new cities, raze them or abandon some of our current cities in order to stay under the limit.

    Now, during this same time period, where we have our 12 cities but we don't have Panzers, if we start a war things are different. In these wars our goal is to have the AIs war against each other, not us. If the offended AI does send units into our land we will kill them inside our land, in no-mans-land and, if they are next to our borders but in a neighbor's land, we will kill them there, too. But we won't be sending units to go attack their cities.

    Barbs are rampaging, so we can use them to promote our Veterans to Elite status.

    Sasquatch, you're signed up. I'm not a wonder builder, but having the right wonders can still trigger a Golden Age. I'm just afraid of having our GA at the wrong time!
    Tad Empire_0_o, sure!
    TheOverseer714, I don't expect these gameturns to be as time intensive as CBob03. This is just a standard map, not huge, and not pangea, either.
     
  16. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

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    I'd like to join too.

    I'm a bit worried that the 12 city limit is too narrow to allow for an interesting game until the panzers, for 2 reasons.

    1. Resources. Any xCC variant faces the problem of how to acquire resources (lux or strategic).
    2. Since we are likely to play a builders game until the panzers, I'd like to have something to work with that can make us a real economic powerhouse that dictates the tech race. I'd rather have 16 cities for that.

    Combined, I would argue for 16+4. A core of 16. After 16, we can possibly found another 4, but only for claiming a resource not found in our core (going to war for claiming a resource should be allowed I feel).
     
  17. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    It sounds fun, but I'm still in too much of a Civ-slump to realistically commit to playing this full-time. Sign me up for the Lurker's Hotel ;)
     
  18. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    lurker's comment: Sign me up to watch the show:rockon: This should be interesting to follow
     
  19. Tribute

    Tribute Not Sarcastic

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    CBob, is ThinkTank correct? Let's suppose you don't get any oil or rubber (needed to build Panzers, right?) in your territory. You can't acquire any through war since you can't move out offensively. Does that mean you will have to trade for them? As long as you aren't planning AW after Motorized Transportation, things should work out fine, but I'm not too clear about that point.

    I'll be lurking.
     
  20. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    lurker's comment: this looks sweet Cbob :goodjob: i love modern age stuff. well done! i'll follow it in lurker mode. i wish i could join but RL stuff is killing me right now. perhaps i could sub in for someone should i be able to find time.

    in a nutshell, it's pretty simple :) full fledged air warfare is very similar to standard modern military doctrine (conventional warfare really) where air supremacy is the king of the battlefield. by this i mean that once you get it, all of the other pieces generally fall into place.

    for example, your civ has access to and can build both fighters and bombers. your enemy, as far as you know, also has access to fighters and bombers. therefore, on paper, you're at even strength, so to speak. now, say you want to launch an offensive (or hunker down for the defensive) against an enemy that borders your empire. you calculate the tile distances in correlation to your air units' operational range and see that, yes, both the fighters and bombers have the requisite range to reach your enemy's cities.

    therefore, what i normally do -- and this applies to all civ3 games really, not just the modern scenario stuff i'm into -- is to send in my fighter units first on a bombing mission. now, i realize that the bombardment rating for fighter units is lousy. however, the intent here isn't necessarily to inflict damage upon the enemy. instead, the purpose is to draw out enemy interceptors and engage them. of course, damage inflicted by your fighters, or as i like to call them, the "first wave", is great. but the low bombardment rating for fighter units is relatively low (3 or 5 iirc for the standard civ3 fighter) and consequently, you won't be relying on these little buggers to inflict much damage. you're going to be hoping that the RNG kicks in for the enemy's rate of interception/fighter scramble. this is 50% iirc for the unmodded civ3conquests. so there's a 1 in 2 chance that your enemy will scramble its fighters when you send in any air unit on a bombing run.

    in addition, the purpose of sending in fighter units first is b/c they have a better defensive value (for C3C i think) than the bomber units. and when you're on bombing runs, it's always your defensive value against the attack value of of the intercepting air unit. so in this breath, you always want to consider the a/d values of your air units against those of your enemy before sending in your fly boys :cool:

    now, once you've sent in a handful of your "first wave" fighters, you'll have a good idea of what type of air defense your enemy has. of course, the 1 in 2 scramble ratio might skew the picture some. i ramp this ratio way up for my mods, i mean, radar, etc in the modern age means to me that interceptors can scramble themsleves more often than not - so i put the number at 80-90% instead of 50%. prior to the advent of radar (pre-ww2 really), it's a whole different ball game imo (and 50% seems about right, i think). this is irrelevent for your game though. so i won't stray too far on this topic.

    once you've cleared the path (ie at least partial air superiority), so to speak, you can now send in your heavies. of course, you need not have any type of air superiority at all to send in the bombers. however, you're dancing with the devil :devil: as they say if you don't at least feel out the enemy's air defense. also keep in mind that really high attrition rates during war impact war weariness. so it's prudent imo to do the "first wave" tactics and then follow it up w/ the heavies.

    another variable to consider is ground-based anti-aircraft arty. be advised however that it's been confirmed by a few different reliable sources here at cfc that the default AA value for the flak & sam units is wrong. by this i mean that we have found that it's off by a mile...up to ten times lower than it should be in reality. it is suggested that the civ3conquests developers bothched the algorithims w/ the aa vlaues. anyhow, i won't get into here since it most likely won't have too much of an impact on this SG since the defensive values of the default civ3conquests air units are so dang low [see below for a more definitive explanation].

    AAA kills and the effectiveness of your ack-ack pieces and sam units (and your enemies) is determined much like the air-to-air interceptor model where it's the defensive value of the incoming/bombing air unit against the AA value of the flak/sam unit. so, again, consider the defensive values of any of your air units against your enemy's aa units (flak & sam's).

    lastly, be advised that air units on air superiority missions have a combat range twice that of their actual operational range. so a fighter unit that has an op range of, say, 6, can intercept incoming enemy air units up to 12 squares away from where they're based.

    in sum, once you rule the skies, you can A.) send in the heavies and inflict some real tangible damage against your AI opponents and then B.) follow it up w/ ground and/or mechanized troops for a successful assault.

    i hope this helps and i'm always happy to go into further detail should anyone wish :D just say the word!
     

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