Celtic Civilization

[The Hyper Duck]

I only skimmed over this thread but I'll add my thoughts FWTW.

There are already enough civs in this mod, and Celtic tribes, at least as far as the timeframe of this mod goes, were not really organized into any sort of polity that had a significant impact on European history. There are several other civs I would include before a Celtic one (e.g. a North African one), and frankly I probably wouldn't bother adding those either.

A Scottish/Irish civ sounds fun in theory, but I don't really see the point. I guess it'd be fun to crush the English under your thumb and make history all topsy-turvy, but once the English are gone, you're basically just the United Kingdom and you'll probably end up playing the game essentially the same as you would if you were English anyway.

I do agree that the current Welsh/Scottish barbs are not enough to represent the difficulty that the English actually had while trying to suppress these places. The English frequently conquer Scotland long before it happened in real life. Playing the English is easy enough as it is because the AI doesn't understand how to use transports, there should be a few more roadblocks to unifying Britain.

I know people don't like scripted events and this idea is already not liked, but I still think it would be better if there were "scheduled rebellions" in Scotland (and maybe Wales). There could still be random spawnings of one or two highlanders at random times, but if there were a few scripted uprisings involving stacks of highlanders/era-appropriate infantry, it might make holding onto Scotland more of a challenge...and really, holding onto Scotland should be a challenge. Honestly I would like to see a stability hit there too, but that might be a bit much for an AI England to handle.

 

[AlistairMac]

i just think if another civ were added it should be the scots/celts

 

[Michael Vick]

The Scots didn't really impact European affairs in the Middle Ages. They impacted England's affairs, but not the continent on the whole. In all fairness, this mod has all the most important players represented. There are a few civs that could be added, but shouldn't be for valid reasons - IE the Khazars could be added in, but the current Mongol conquest of the Rus' already represents them. The Varangians could be added, but their predecessors the Norse and their successor state of the Kievan Rus' already represent them, and not enough time to play the civ between these two states. Other civs had a huge impact on Euro affairs, but wouldn't work out in terms of gameplay - IE the Maltese could justifiably be added as a civ (their victory over the Ottomans marked a major turning point - for the first time, Christendom's morale surged when they realized the Turks could be defeated in combat); however, the only stable region for them on the map would be the single tile of Malta (I guess the Levant would count, too, given the order's defense of cities there). A one-city challange civ might spice things up, but UHVs for a single-city civ would be tough to implement (IE - found Knights Hospitaler {representing Knights of Malta - or create the KoM as a new order to be founded}? Capture and hold an Ottoman city for at least 10 turns? Spread Knights Hospitaler/Knights of Malta to X%?).

As it stands, the civs in the mod are those that should be, and the civs not in the mod either wouldn't work out gameplay-wise, or weren't accomplished enough to earn a spot. I think the barbs do well enough to represent the Scots. Perhaps a large stack could be coded around 1300 to commemorate Sterling Bridge, but creating too powerful a horde would divert precious military the English would need to conquer the Franks, and given the AI's incompentence, we'd often wind up seeing a barbarian Britain.

Seeing a Scotland or Ireland Civ, fighting the civ, or having diplomatic relations with the civ (historically, as France maybe) would be fun but I agree that it isn't worth the all the balancing and speed problems it would cause. Things can be done to liven up the area though. I like the scheduled rebellion idea. A decent sized stack would appear with several highlanders, some longbowmen, and maybe a "William Wallace" Great General to lead them. England would get a notification similar to the crusade notifications about the uprising and William Wallace or the Jacobites depending on which uprising. The other missing element from the game without Scotland is the possible interaction with other Europeans. France could get quests, missions or decisions or whatever involving Scotland. The Spanish and French could receive special Irish "Wild Geese" units in the 16th - 18th centuries via special events maybe?
Just a few ideas to represent the Celtic civs without an actual civilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_the_Wild_Geese

 

[Science Rules]

MV,

I like your idea of having continental civs interact with confilicts on the British Isles via Ireland/Scotland. Personally I think the Celtic regions have two distinct phases:

Phase I: Hostile peoples that must be conquered by the Anglo-Normans to unify Britain

Phase II: Dissidents that occasionally rebel and cause instability. After the reformation, religious differences become very prevalent in these issues.

Phase I is currently implemented and could be improved by merely increasing the number and strength of Celtic barbarians.

Phase II is currently unimplemented. In lieu of an actual Celtic civilization, we should involve Catholic nations on the continent. Perhaps we could borrow the Crusade mechanic to allow Catholic nations to covertly (or overtly?) donate troops/money/supplies to the rebels. Strong support for the rebels would be later rewarded with faith points and/or wild geese. Spain should be allowed to complete its UHV by supporting Irish rebellions against Protestant England.

In addition, the Gaelic resurgence needs to be represented. After Ireland UHV checks in 1452, England should lose its Celtic territories unless it has super-solid stability. A script could be crafted that checks England's stability and generates a turn-by turn probability of Irish/Scottish/Welsh independence. If the condition checks, England loses those cities and units and must spend the next few turns reconquering them (to simulate the Tudor conquest). After the reformation, Catholics on the Continent will sponsor further rebellions. Because England's only Atlantic Access will be located in Ireland, no player could possibly tolerate these rebellions.