CFC 10 year anniversary GOTM specials

[Magic_gorter]

Perhaps to prove you got those two techs anyway (if you're afread that because something happens you won't) just save it before the turn ends (you only have to press enter) and save it directly after hitting enter. Submitting both saves is a prove you succeeded.

The rules seems ok to me. I will think if something misses and let this know.....

I'm planning to start the EL on monday. Don't think I have enough time to make the page before monday. This weekend I must work again.....the starting save is created already so if I can find some time I might try it earlier....

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Also, I agree with others that E2T shouldn't be very hard [so in effect, the game might become a race to FT2]. OK with me, but to simulate E255, you might consider "first to get 3 FTs in a turn" instead.

I agree whole heartedly. I was afraid that if I do that you and some others may decide to sit on the sidelines. If others agree I will change it to E3FT as it is a much more representative game.

I don't think you mean "food surplus". You mean the net gain in food per turn ?

To me both are the same thing. What do you think I meant by food surplus?

Perhaps the rule should be that no city can lose more than one sheaf per turn and have scientists in the final turn. That way, a food-challenged city would not help the player much towards FT2, but it wouldn't be a total roadblock to finishing.

With ICS, you can get clusters of large cities, without enough food tiles to support them all, even if you are not really trying for that. You can sustain them by shuffling workers around and by using food vans. Would you insist that players avoid that situation, by allowing starvation ? I guess that would work, but it seems less natural to me than allowing big nearby cities [with no scientists].

Good point. I realized the shortage caused by engineers, but also realized that you can disband them right before the save. You are right that early close by cities can grow large but unless you manipulate them by switching workers around all the time, no city ever grows beyond -1 food. Nevertheless, I guess it is reasonable to change the rule to no starving cities may have scientists. I will do that right away.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

NOTE: Our next GOTM will be EL, probably starting in a few days. I'd be grateful for more EL strategies from the players and comments on the format of our logs [see my previous post]. We have a couple of months to plan the E?T game.

Years ago I developed a status report format which you see in all my logs and has since been adopted by others. I think this status report is very comprehensive and if done often enough at agreed upon points in the game is very revealing.
I suggest we all agree to do this at -2000,-1000, -500, +1, +500, +1000, +1500, +1750, +1800, +1850, ...

Here is a sample:

Status at +1500
Population: 6.57M; Cities: 31; Trade routes: 12D1F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 703; Cost per turn: 39; Total advances: 31; Production: 194MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo, Michelangelo, King Richard's
Units: 21 Settlers (3 None), 16 Warriors, 19 Musketeers, 1 None elephant, 9 Crusaders, 2 Trireme, 4 Diplomat, 21 Caravans, 1 explorer
Roman: 8 cities, 31 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall,
Viking: 25 cities, 11 techs
Spanish: 13 cities, 31 techs; Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu
Persian: 20 cities, 11 techs; Lighthouse
Mongol: 1 cities, 29 techs

Note that by comparing population to the number of cities you can tell if the player is building lots of small cities or a handful of large ones. By looking at the number of trade routes compared to the number of cities you can tell how maximized the cities trade capacities are. By looking at the number of domestic vs. foreign routes you can tell where one prefers to trade. Infrastructure cost compared to number of cities gives you an idea about how much infrastructure one has built up to this point (Keep the existence of Adam Smith in mind for this number). Looking at the number and type of troops relative to the number of cities is also very telling.

I make detailed logs. I often post them. I doubt many read them due to too much detail. I use them in 2 ways: to help remind me of what I was doing in a game when I have been away for long and to help look things up as I play. I am doubtful of their value vs. their cost and may cutback on the detail.

What I find more useful is strategy thoughts at the beginning and major junctions of the game. Decisions such as: time to halt growth and concentrate on wonder building, which tech path to follow in mid game, when to wage war, ...

For example in GOTM106 we had to make a decision as to whether to build on the north pole or not. If not, do we send one settler in each direction or both travel together. These are crucial decisions and it would be helpful to know how people reached those decisions.

 

[timtofly]

Are we going to allow "2 or 3" FT's before finishing all the other techs?

If so the hidden tech limit may hide FT as an option if the tech tree is not complete.


I think the (scientist / food) rule should be the same as the (celebrating demo / food) rule. If one gets to the 30-40 city size food is going to be an issue. I would not say you have to have all of your extra citizens as elvis or tax collector. My point is you cannot turn all of your citizens to scientist and have a 19 deficet food count in order to get more beakers. To get E3T you may need scientist in all of your cities. The strategy lies in keeping your city balanced between growth and research. The comparison will be between having less cities in the ELG and still get E3T in one turn, and having lots of cities in ICS doing the same thing. Even in Fundy with scientist you can get 2T per turn. I am not sure you can get 3T unless you are in Demo.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Are we going to allow "2 or 3" FT's before finishing all the other techs?

If so the hidden tech limit may hide FT as an option if the tech tree is not complete.

I have decided to allow that and the rules explicitly say so. This game will be a scenario with direct techs so tech hiding is not a concern.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I propose to change the game from E2T to E3T. If someone finds that intolerable and would rather not play please say so.

 

[Peaster]

To me both are the same thing. What do you think I meant by food surplus?

I may be wrong, but I think of "surplus" as stuff you have, that you don't need right away. So, I read "surplus" as the number of sheaves already in the food box. But it was clear from the context, that this wasn't what you meant, and I guess "surplus" could apply to the flow of food. Maybe that's even standard in Civ2 - dunno.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Thanks for the explanation Peaster. I see. As you guessed I meant net gain in food per turn.

 

[CharlieChuck]

I've somehow got confused here. Are the EL and E2FT are two different games? Perhaps I'll read the thread again.

As for the Xin (dance?), I've always considered this to be borderline allowed (on the same level as building airbases), my reason is it relies on a flaw in the game engine that on the first turn of starvation a city won't reduce in size even if there is no surplus food in the box. I've got no problem with anyone else using it, it's nigh on impossible to tell if it's used mid game or not. As these are comparison games I'm just wondering if some use it and some don't it may distort the results.

 

[Peaster]

Years ago I developed a status report format which you see in all my logs and has since been adopted by others. I think this status report is very comprehensive and if done often enough at agreed upon points in the game is very revealing.
I suggest we all agree to do this at -2000,-1000, -500, +1, +500, +1000, +1500, +1750, +1800, +1850, ...

Here is a sample...

What I find more useful is strategy thoughts at the beginning and major junctions of the game. Decisions such as: time to halt growth and concentrate on wonder building, which tech path to follow in mid game, when to wage war, ...

Ali - The idea of EL GOTM 110 is to do something different, which will shed more light on EL and Trade than the old logs. We can go back to the old ones in GOTM 111, of course. If you haven't already, please read the recent trade thread in the General [or maybe Strategy?] Forum, to see how little we know about each other's style of play, especially in EL/Trade. You and I also commented on this recently, and I guess you've read this thread and learned some new things about us already.

The old-style logs do not reveal anything about the cost and benefits of ongoing trade routes. They do not include the time or costs or benefits of celebrations. I think most players do not include all van deliveries, or all advances, or all TLS settings, or the beakers per turn from F5. I'm looking for ways to get this kind of info without excessive work. I'll probably post a standard format soon, but would prefer to hear your responses to the above first.

BTW - I completely agree that notes on the player's thinking are very interesting, and I hope that people will include those in their logs, as well as in the pre-game discussion. The answers of MG and CC above have helped a lot already.

I can also agree on the dates -2000 ... but would like some extra info this time. To minimize the extra work, I'm suggesting we collect that only at -500, 1 and +500, for example. I think a few players may finish before +1000 but we can include +1000/etc if you like.

 

[timtofly]

No offense to Peaster, I have been trying to say that comparison games could be both EL and E3FT. The only difference is not landing a spaceship. With EL you are almost there. The Spaceship would only add points, similiar to FT adding points. Landing a ship however would end the game. There is no "scientific" victory in CivII.

 

[Peaster]

I've somehow got confused here. Are the EL and E2FT are two different games?

Yes. The EL game was my suggestion, based on the general confusion, and variety of opinions in some recent threads. A lot of that was about trade, so I think of it as an EL/Trade game. It will be GOTM 110, starting very soon. I don't think it will have any special rules, except against early hut popping, but it will have special logs to help us draw better conclusions.

The E2FT or whatever hasn't been scheduled yet, but I think it is an option for our 10th Anniv game in October [?]. It started when Ali proposed an E255FT game [partly to test my trade opinions]. I objected that such a game would go too long [see the first post in this thread] and proposed "E3T" instead. We've been sorting that out since then, but this thread has also been about the EL game.

 

[CharlieChuck]

Yes. The EL game was my suggestion, based on the general confusion, and variety of opinions in some recent threads. A lot of that was about trade, so I think of it as an EL/Trade game. It will be GOTM 110, starting very soon. I don't think it will have any special rules, except against early hut popping, but it will have special logs to help us draw better conclusions.

The E2FT or whatever hasn't been scheduled yet, but I think it is an option for our 10th Anniv game in October [?]. It started when Ali proposed an E255FT game [partly to test my trade opinions]. I objected that such a game would go too long [see the first post in this thread] and proposed "E3T" instead. We've been sorting that out since then, but this thread has also been about the EL game.

That explains it, thanks.

 

[Peaster]

No offense to Peaster, I have been trying to say that comparison games could be both EL and E3FT. The only difference is not landing a spaceship. With EL you are almost there. The Spaceship would only add points, similiar to FT adding points. Landing a ship however would end the game. There is no "scientific" victory in CivII.

Not offended, but I don't agree. The Civ2 community has no consensus on very basic questions about EL strategy and Trade strategy, which the EL game will address. It should be a fairly typical EL GOTM.

The EFT game was a suggestion by Ali, for a very different kind of game, in which my ICS+Big Trade strategy might not work so well. I know it's not all about me, but I think that's how it started. Anyway, I thiink Ali doesn't want it to be too much like EL, and his rules are designed that way. I am more interested in standard EL, but will probably give the EFT game a try.

 

[Peaster]

@Ali: I thought you agreed to play the "serious EL game" (GOTM 110), but you aren't participating yet. What happened to you ? Can you describe your principles (or habits) when playing for EL, or when trading ?

I am not sure others agreed, but everyone is welcome ... Grigor ?

 

[grigor]

I just finished GOTM 109, and I have been waiting to see what will happen in 110. I have a crummy record in EL games, but I will try to do a Slow Thinker style ICS with Trade. For me, to land before 1000AD will be a new achievement.

I was really excited with my GOTM 109 early game (pre-2000), but that was about it.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Peaster, I am definitely in. I have downloaded the game and done a map analysis (I always do that first). I have not had a chance to post my results or start playing. I have been very busy this week and will be for another 4-5 days. I also want to finish GOTM109 first which since I am playing OCC should not take that long.

 

[burnt-offering]

I've only ever done one FT255, on Deity, just to prove I could. It took me 10 weeks

Game strategy was basically a late conquest - early c.20 with a big army of howitzers and a fundamentalist govt. Leave behind one city in the weakest civ to avoid the conquest (and turn the AI off!) Then switch to Democracy and whack the science up to 80%. Use all the money made as fundamentalist to buy libraries & universities. To keep the books balanced need lots of vans.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

GOTM 110 is going to last 2 months. Shortly afterwards we are going to have E3FT which may warrant another 2 month game. And not too long after that we may have similar situation with the anniversary game. If we are not going to skip a game in the month following the introduction of these games, may I suggest:

A One City Challenge for the some of these games. All will be required to play the game with never having more than one city. Space ship and conquest will both be allowed.

 

[Peaster]

@Ali: Glad to hear you are still planning to play 110, but you haven't participated in the pre-game discussion yet. I suppose you understand what I am asking, but if not, please see the Q+A posts above by MG, CC and myself. Also, I hope you will adopt the special log format for this game; you can include your usual stats as well, of course.