CFC 10 year anniversary GOTM specials

[Ali Ardavan]

Peaster,

I have already started playing and I am at -2350. Is this the Q&A you are talking about?

* Probably simple questions will arise about how others play, and our logs should have the answers. For example -

Did you give techs to your key civ ?
Did you delay Invention / Navn ?
Did you usually aim for war or peace with the AI ?
Do you aim more for big bonuses or for ongoing routes ?
How do you get your advances - mainly from the AI ? your cities ? vans ?
How do you decide when to change govts ?
When do you build settlers vs vans vs WoWs, etc ? [roughly]
What are your first 5 WoWs ?

* We'll keep notes on our trade stats, such as - how many vans were delivered before 1AD, what was the approx total in trade bonuses then, how much gold was spent on RBing vans, etc... Ideally, we'll get all the important data without too much extra work, but I haven't quite thought this thru yet, and welcome ideas. How much detail do people want in the logs ?

If so, my answers vary depending on the parameters of the game. Typically:

I tech gift a lot, not just to my key civ but also to others to guide their research towards a needed low priority tech that I can later exchange for.

I only delay Nav/Inv for an immediate delivery. I do not refrain from popping huts when those are possible.

I divide the AI into 3 groups: enemies, trading partners, don't cares. The grouping is partially dictated by geography and partially by traits (aggressive ones are more likely to end up in the first group). I aim to eliminate the first group, contain the second, and don't care about the third.

I value trade routes a great deal. I aim to have 3 trade routes in every city.

My main source of scientific advance is typically my SSC.

I try not to change governments often. Like everyone else, my first goal is Monarchy. I sometimes skip Republic on the way to democracy.

I am a big fan of wonders and start on them pretty early, perhaps earlier than others. Marco, Colossus, and Hanging Gardens are my early favorites regardless of my strategy. Choice of all other wonders depends on goal, strategy, and map.

 

[Peaster]

Yes, that's it - thanks. I was also trying to see who fits into the ICS camp vs the ELG camp. I'm pretty sure you aren't ICS ... probably not ELG either [?]. When you play for landing, are you normally trying to finish ASAP or trying for an ideal civ (or...) ? Do you plan anything different in gotm 110, to finish quickly ?


As far as I can tell, the main differences in style among the current players are:

ICS vs ELG [vs other] ... actually, nobody has clearly called themself an ELG player!
Put real effort into trade routes , or not.
Get most advances from an SSC - or from vans.

I hope we can see which ideas work best in gotm 110. IMO the hardest part to analyze will be the benefits of trade routes. Can you [Ali or anyone] estimate that ? Is the main benefit the extra arrows per turn [for taxes or science] or easier celebrations ?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I'm pretty sure you aren't ICS ... probably not ELG either [?]. When you play for landing, are you normally trying to finish ASAP or trying for an ideal civ (or...) ? Do you plan anything different in gotm 110, to finish quickly ?

I am definitely not ICS, but I am not pure ELG either. Between the two I am closer to ELG. I try to place most of my cities with little overlap; that by itself disqualifies me from being an ICS player. I often make a full space ship rather than the smallest possible (unless I am playing OCC) which differentiates me from pure ELG players. I tend to make smaller number of powerful cities which is closer to ELG than ICS, but ELG aims for 10 cities. I often far exceed that. To me ELG, as defined in the ELG guide by Solo, is too narrowly and too rigidly focused.

For GOTM 110 I will try to be more narrowly focused on early landing than usual. I will probably make a 15s3c1m ship instead of a full one. I will probably stop expansion earlier than usual. I may also tone research down near the end.

I hope we can see which ideas work best in gotm 110. IMO the hardest part to analyze will be the benefits of trade routes. Can you [Ali or anyone] estimate that ? Is the main benefit the extra arrows per turn [for taxes or science] or easier celebrations ?

Of course both extra arrows and easier celebrations matter, between the two I think arrows matter more since they are around even after celebrations end due to food shortage. In the latter part of the game I sometimes establish trade routes to cities smaller than size 3 to make sure they can celebrate incessantly once they reach size 3.

I do measure my usage of trade routes for my status reports. I report the number of active domestic and foreign routes. Another thing we can do is to report the amount of science from SSC and total science produced per turn (both readily available from trade report). The difference would be science from other trade routes.

 

[Peaster]

Thanks. I am glad to see that we each have our own distinct EL style, which should make this gotm very interesting.

Of course both extra arrows and easier celebrations matter, between the two I think arrows matter more since they are around even after celebrations end due to food shortage.

Glad to hear that, because arrows are easier to measure than the benefits of celebration. But I guess they are linked ... celebration = growth = more arrows....

I do measure my usage of trade routes for my status reports. I report the number of active domestic and foreign routes.

Yes, I've noticed those stats, but I don't know how to use them to evaluate your strategy. For example, 5 great routes could be better than 10 weak ones. And it is not totally clear to me how your routes help you meet your goals. You said you rely mostly on your SSC, so I assume most of your routes are less important, but still somewhat important (can you see how I might be confused?).

BTW - I think most of my cities do eventually have 3 routes. I'm just saying that I don't really try for that, and I don't think it is too important for my strategy [could be wrong].

Another thing we can do is to report the amount of science from SSC and total science produced per turn (both readily available from trade report). The difference would be science from other trade routes.

Do you mean "from other cities" ? I don't think F5 distinguishes beakers from routes and beakers from city workers. Nor F1. I don't know an easy way to count how many beakers are coming from routes. Do you know a way ? Or maybe some useful formula or even a rule-of-thumb ? I think that most of the arrows in my games come from workers rather than routes - but not sure. I guess if this question becomes important to our comparison, we can load some saved games, and just count arrows by hand.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Do you mean "from other cities" ? I don't think F5 distinguishes beakers from routes and beakers from city workers. Nor F1. I don't know an easy way to count how many beakers are coming from routes. Do you know a way ? Or maybe some useful formula or even a rule-of-thumb ? I think that most of the arrows in my games come from workers rather than routes - but not sure. I guess if this question becomes important to our comparison, we can load some saved games, and just count arrows by hand.

Yes, I did mean other cities instead of other routes. And you are right, there is no easy way to measure those. You have to go through every city and add them up which is pretty tedious. Even reporting the number of routes, as I do, is pretty tedious past mid game when many cities have trade routes.

My goals in trade are typically (with variation as situation demands):
1. Establish 3 trade routes for SSC, even if it means delivering undemanded goods
2. Establish trade routes for larger cities with demanded goods even if it means delivering domestically
3. Try to have 3 routes in every city

When trying to choose between 2 alternative deliveries I consider 6 factors: distance, time to delivery, demand, foreign vs. domestic, offshore vs. same continent, and whether it establishes a new route. Establishing a new route is often given highest weight.

 

[Peaster]

My highest priority in trade is a large bonus, so I can re-invest a good profit ASAP, and get beakers "for free". So, I always try for demanded+overseas+foreign, and I probably succeed in that with 90% of my vans. Also, I don't want to get my supplies blocked, so I prefer Hides and to avoid any deliveries with small bonuses. Despite that, most of my cities eventually get blocked [or can only produce "bad commodities"] and most of my cities have 2-3 ongoing routes by the time they are size 5 or so. I think your approach is more common than mine, but I don't understand why people value ongoing routes so much, and [I assume] block themselves ... hopefully gotm 110 will shed light on this.

 

[timtofly]

I cannot explain the mechanics of it, but it seems after a certain "point" (turns, pop, FT) trade with a "pet" city nearby will give you more ongoing trade arrows than a city on another continent even if both are AI.

The workaround: set up early close trade with road/rail connection. Then have dip/spy and military to "control" the outcome of a demanded overseas trade so you get the bonus upon trade but not lose the nearby route or if you do loose it to get it back right away.

Trade is a must for growth since it is the biggest return on investment. The unit can get the "full" payoff when helping to build a wonder. Disbanding any other unit only gives half. When a unit is traded you get a gold and science return. Although slight at first it also affects luxury and gold when the trade routes are established. You do not have to pay "maintenance" or even risk the chance of "losing" a trade route. Unless the city you are trading with is destroyed. The AI usually do not destroy their own city because you are trading with it. It is usually another AI that destroys the AI city when they are at war.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I don't understand why people value ongoing routes so much, ... hopefully gotm 110 will shed light on this.

One reason I care so much and you do not is that you typically play for early conquest and your games are short; you are not in it for the long haul. E3T will be a better gauge for the value of on going routes than GOTM 110.

 

[Peaster]

E3T will be a better gauge for the value of on going routes than GOTM 110.

Only for their value in E3T games. For traditional EL games, GOTM 110 will be a better gauge. And most players seem to agree with you about ongoing routes in normal EL games, so maybe I am missing something.

Maybe you are saying that ongoing routes will make more sense in an E3T game ? Maybe. I haven't thought much about E3T strategy yet. It might be an interesting exercise, but IMO it will not prove much about typical Civ2 games. We should look for guidelines on trade and landing that work well in traditional settings, such as EL and maybe "Fat EC".

 

[timtofly]

After seeing Solo and Zenons # 7 comparison game, it is possible to get an early landing and a 3T turn fairly early. Is the goal going to be 3FT or just 3T?