CFP Series II

[ChienFou]

[size=+1]ChienFou Prince Series No.2[/size]

There are lots of us out here. We can manage noble, We get ok, but inferior, starts on prince (thanks Sisiutil) and somewhere along the line the sky falls on our heads. We lose bucketloads of tempi in the opening. I'm playing this series since I've made no fewer than 7 starts with these parameters and every time something went 'orribly wrong. The idea of the series is to play an opening up to a specified point and micro-manage what we're doing, so each gameplay will be relatively short; maybe 10 turns or so. In the series we're going to build a UU and a cat, or there-abouts - say around 1AD. Anyone interested can have a go with the game and compare notes, but the early game is what this series is about. We might try two or three games with these parameters. Standard settings, epic speed, fractal map, Warlords 2.08.

4000-2650BC
Gamefile start

Rather than play Toku again I went for Ragnar, again I chose a leader with a fairly early UU. We get Hunting and Fishing, and a beefed up light-house. This implies to me that coastal cities are somewhat more attractive. Here's the starting parameters:

I notice that in the AFC series Sisiutil suggests building a 2nd scout before the first worker when you have hunting as the much increased chance of finding goody huts is worth the slowdown in growth. In principle I'm going to do this, but first we need to see the map.

I moved the scout to the top of the hill overlooking the water, knowing I'd see across the water and an alternative 1st city was that tile. The problem with that southern tile was a lot of desert in the BFC so I decided to take the coastal start.

This popped the goody hut and deer showed up as well. Good choice, I think. It also showed us another goody hut and some stone. Perhaps we have a choke point here if we take corn/stone as a city? It doesn't look great though, does it? 4 squares of desert and a load of water in the BFC. We can look around a bit first and decide later. Meantime let's have the goody hut and I'll scout around the E and then go N as a first circuit.

In the first of this series public humiliation I was criticised for not having a plan, so I'm looking at the options here. It's going to take 22 turns to build a scout and 45 turns for a work boat, although we grow to size 2 after 11 turns. It's 23 turns for a worker, and that's fixed. We can develop the deer as soon as that's completed. AH is 17 turns which will get us the piggies, which we can start on immediately instead, but we're a bit short on hammers, so we're going to need Mining and BW to fix that, although there's one hill with no forest. Since developed piggies is 6F1G and developed deer is 4F1H1G I'm going to do the piggies first and will research AH. The 2nd scout seems too expensive in time; I'll build a worker.

The goody hut gave us 116G. That'll help the research slider.

The journey North paid off rather well as we found another goody hut and popped it for a second scout. It's going well as we can send one scout SW and the other SE.

We got AH in 3490 and I started on mining. I'm worrying about hammers. I had my usual run-ins with lions and wolves, and even had a close encounter with a barb Warrior in the SW, but I got away and healed on a forested hill; glad I checked each turn. I'm a "healer"; these assets are too precious to throw away in the early game, and there are more lions then goody huts. My SE scout ran into Hatchepsut in 3310 about 10 tiles East of the capital. Why would she be 93 and me only 62? Scout had eaten a wolf for 1xp and no damage the turn before and is now 4/5. One more wolf and he'll have Woodsman 2. If I stick to forest I think he'll get a lot of exploring done.

In 3310 my worker arrived and I immediately started the piggies. I started a warrior. I think I can build 2 warriors while I grow to size 3 and then I can chop out another worker and 2 settlers. I've spotted some geegees and some gold, although they're a bit distant. SW scout ran into Brennus 8 tiles South of the capital the same year. Hatchy 100; Brennus 85; me 62. I don't like this.

I got mining in 3190 and started on BW. The piggies came on stream and i decided to poach the deer. I'll stick to growth and commerce before I worry about the hammers too much. I'm going to have to fit sailing in somewhere for my uber-lighthouse too. I'll build the workboat once I've got some hammers I think, there's enough around for the moment.

Both my scouts got eaten, despite careful placement by 3100 but I've got a good 1st and 2nd circuit in (10-12 tiles all around), and I'll only get humiliated if I try to settle further away than that.

I got my first warrior in 2980, and since the next warrior is 6 turns and so is growth I'm going to build him too. I'm using a 3H hill till I get the deer running and I'm going to need the fogbusters. Then it'll be time for another serious think.

In 2920 the deer 4F1H1G came on stream so I switched to that. I'll stick with the warrior and get to size 4, using the clam (5 turns). The warrior finishes then too. I think I'll mine the unforested grassland hill and when BW is in (6 turns) will chop the workboat. There's a lot of forest here, enough for some settlers too. The gold square is close to corn. Must be right unless we get some copper.

2740 and we met Roosevelt near the gold, 8 South of our capital. The warrior had an encounter with a lion. I hope I can get him to Woodsman 2. Brennus 133; Hatchy 119; Roosevelt 106; me 98. Does this tell me anything? (Oh, and I changed my name to chienFou II when I realised I was called user)

We got BW in 2650, some Copper showed up and I think we can do corn/Cu/Ag, settling 1NW of the Gold. It'll take time to get the Corn in since we'll need to chop the monument, but I can mine the gold while the border pops. I'd started the workboat, but need a warrior in Nidaros to keep the locals happy on the next pop growth, and 2 to do fogbusting for the settler. so I'll build a 3rd warrior, then start chopping out workers and settlers. I'm teching wheel so as to hook up the gold quickly, and after that I think Sailing (for the lighthouse) then Pottery for the cottages (via AG to get the discount as I'll need that soon for the corn). This should get Nidaros into a serious commerce city. It hasn't got a lot of hammers relatively speaking, so that seems its best use.

Now seems a good time to stop. I hope the "Gods" don't think I've made quite such a mess of this start as the first one (CFP series). As ever comments welcome and gratefully received. I need an icon for "Public humiliation" ChienFou.

I've also noticed my video card really isn't up to Civ IV, so I think I'll go spend some commerce on a new PC. This one also thinks reading a CD involves beating it to death (or that's what it sounds like) - it's on its last legs. I may not be back for a day or two

Gamefile 2650BC

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

In the first of this series public humiliation I was criticised for not having a plan, so I'm looking at the options here.

Good.

It's going to take 22 turns to build a scout and 45 turns for a work boat, although we grow to size 2 after 11 turns. It's 23 turns for a worker, and that's fixed. We can develop the deer as soon as that's completed. AH is 17 turns which will get us the piggies, which we can start on immediately instead, but we're a bit short on hammers, so we're going to need Mining and BW to fix that, although there's one hill with no forest. Since developed piggies is 6F1G and developed deer is 4F1H1G I'm going to do the piggies first and will research AH. The 2nd scout seems too expensive in time; I'll build a worker.

Not so good.

Bluntly, this isn't a plan. This is a script.

Now scripts are important. Among other things, they help you determine if a plan is possible, and by tuning your script you bring the milestones of your plan closer in time (which generally makes the moves stronger). But the map is not the territory.

I'm teching wheel so as to hook up the gold quickly, and after that I think Sailing (for the lighthouse) then Pottery for the cottages (via AG to get the discount as I'll need that soon for the corn). This should get Nidaros into a serious commerce city. It hasn't got a lot of hammers relatively speaking, so that seems its best use.

Question: so what?

No, let me try a more philosophical approach. Does researching Sailing delay or accelerate your plans?

I believe (based on what you have written) that you'll find it very difficult to gain any traction on that problem... and the reason is that you haven't actually figured out a plan yet, so you've nothing to compare against.

So if you research Sailing, what do you gain? The ability to train galleys. The ability to build a trading post. Trade along the coast. How are you going to take advantage of those right now? Are you in a hurry to build a trading post? It seems to me that your attention is on settlers, workers, and defense right now. The trading post gives you extra food to work coastal tiles... but coastal tiles don't give you very many hammers, which seems to be your immediate concern. It also gives you +1 movement on galleys - were you planning to build a galley any time soon?

Note: I'm not criticizing Sailing as a research choice - it could be exactly what you need.


When I think about planning, I think in terms of broad strokes, and trying to find synergies. With Ragnar, most of your synergies are aquatic - the trading post gives you fast boats, and a leg up in the circumnavigation race for even faster boats. Berserkers start with the Amphibious promotion which means that you can really abuse the map by attacking across rivers or from ships. And you are aggressive, so your melee units start with combat I, your barracks are cheap, as are the dry docks (bonus promotions for your boats). With everything screaming water water water, you really do want more than your fair share of coastal cities.

So I'd begin my planning by thinking about invoking the Sirian Doctrine - loading up fast boats with berserkers, by passing my opponents defenses to strike at cities directly (right off the boats).

From here, I start looking at the tech tree. I start from Berserkers, which means Machinery and Civil Service. The first thing I notice is that Astronomy is basically three techs past Berserkers (Paper Optics Astronomy, plus Iron Working and Compass if you haven't already scored them). I'm liking this even more, since I'll be able to take my raiders across the sea shortly after I've crippled my immediate neighbors. Next, I notice that Metal Casting is the pre-requisite for Machinery. Now, I want Copper for the Maces anyway, and notice that is the production doubler for the Colossus, which is a very nice piece for a civ that's expecting a lot of coastal tiles.

Which leads to wonders - are there others that also fit well with this plan? The obvious choice is the Great Lighthouse. Free Commerce, via the trade routes... have to have some care here, but it basically ensures that any further coast cities I acquire start paying for themselves immediately, if I manage to stay friendly with one neighbor. Furthermore, Astronomy will open up a big commercial edge when my caravel reveals neighbors. As an added bonus, the Lighthouse gives Great Merchant points, big money in a hurry when I carry one of these guys over the water, but the early merchant can also lightbulb Metal Casting or Currency (getting me to Code of Laws through the back door). Of course, central to this idea is controlling a source of Stone.

So the outline of my plan includes a focus (death from the sea), and a number of intermediate goals along the way. This isn't a beeline; a straight line is not always the fastest way to a goal, and there will be problems to be overcome along the way (where is the happiness going to come from? Or culture for border pops?), and compromises to be made. And of course, there's the possibility that when I script it, I find that it's unworkable (wrong tiles, wrong neighbors, too greedy...)


Unconvinced? Consider the question "Should I use the nearby stone to build the Big Trophy?" I represent that a plan should answer that question for you, and that the outline I provided succeeds at this where your script fails.

[Note: I don't claim that the plan answers that question correctly. After all, the plan may be suboptimal; it may not even be viable. My goal is simply to demonstrate what it is about your planning that I think is lacking.]

 

[ChienFou]

Thank you VoU. There are two aspects to my incompetence Firstly, appalling micro-management in the early game. Secondly no clear strategic objectives.

In respect of the first problem, we discussed how badly I played CFP Series 1 in that thread, and I've tried to address these issues in this start. It does seem to me that the strategic plan only starts to emerge at about the point I stopped. Up till then you're busting a gut to get your city big and some beakers in the bag. To this point your only strategic plan is "Get Big quick". It seems to me that the plan develops - You don't just start with a "I'm going for a culture win": The map, the start and the AIs as well as your leaders' traits play a large part in the making of the plan?

I'm going to have a good wade through the tech tree and see how Ragnar can take maximum advantage of it, before I play on. Thanks again for your efforts above.

 

[ChienFou]

2650-20AD

Aside: Armed with my new found confidence, I played an offline game with Tokugawa and got my first Prince domination win. I was still bleeding tempi, but the SoD with Bombers, Tanks, Infantry, SAMs and Marines finally got me over 64% in 1978. I spent more time concentrating on whether cities were producing beakers or hammers and built things in line with the citys' needs. Settling GGs in hammer cities meant I was producing oven ready 11XP units from my two major production cities, a tank every 3 turns from each

Back to Raggy. I'v decided to chop out a worker and a settler while I'm growing the city, so careful micro-management needed for the chopping. I'm going for sailing after wheel as I've got a good water tile to use, and it's got to be right for raggy. Myst after that for the monument, and then another think. I know it's a script, but I don't think I have enough data for the plan. Ok, I suck, we all know it.

We ran into Izzy in the SE in 2560, and I spotted a good choke point that takes cows and rice, 1W of the rice on a river, keeping the geegees behind it to be backfilled, so decisions to be made; gold or copper or the choke point?

2440 saw Mansa Musa turn up SE and got us the wheel. With 6 civilisations on our island, we're going to have trading partners, and there's a lot to the SE, so I'm going to choke off the SE in a city that will grow quickly. I can chop out a settler there too. The hill that I mined turns out to be silver. Better connect that up once the settler arrives. That's less pressure to grab the gold tile. I've got two workers chopping, then a road to the choke point. Warriors returning from final circuit to fogbust. ... and here's Mehmed in 2380. A complete set of Civs. Good trading.

A couple of turns exceeding happiness cap, then silver on-stream; settler built and ran stright to the 1W tile from the rice. Huge food here, so cottage spam and I decided to research pottery. 1 worker followed the settler, the other can build the road. Will chop out a settler in Uppsala for the stone and whip one in the capital for the Copper along with some workers, and need to look for iron for my UU. Changed to slavery while settler on move. We built Uppsala in 1750. Once the monument's chopped we need Agr for the rice, then I need to think about trading partners. so, Agr, IW, Wri, Alph. I'm inclined for domination, since we're all together.

Mehmed seems to be closest and is going for the gold tile, so he's first on my list.

Since I have to decide stone or copper before I get IW I decided on copper/Gold and settled Haithabu 1NW of Gold in 1330, and this city will act as the staging post for my axe or UU rush. Building 2 workers and another settler in Nidaros. I'm hoping that with all the gold from the goody huts we can sustain 4 cities. Here's a general layout. I'm going to settle stone City (unless iron turns up, and I'll settle there) as well and then go for Mehmet. Plan Domination; Mehmet first.

We found 3 sorces of Iron in 1290, none of them really convenient, so I'm going for axes on Mehmet and get the iron from near him eventually. With my choke city in the SE I don't want to expand further in that direction for iron, although the 2nd border pop will get it, but that's a long way off and the far North iron sucks.

In 1060, the road from Nidaros to Uppsala connected, and so the worker back-tracked a bit and started to connect to Haithabu in order to link up the gold. When the 4th settler arrived, I switched to Granary and chopped it 2 turns later for 2 pop as Nidaros had exceeded its cap. Then Brennus wanted open borders in 895; fine by me and here's some details of his empire.

Birka was founded in 880, on the coast 1SW of the stone. It's not a great site with water and desert, but its got an oasis and corn, so I can grow it a bit. 4 cities are costing me 9 gold, so I wound the research slider off a bit, but the gold will be in in a few turns. Wait for copper while Hithabu pops and build barracks meantime, then it's off to the races. I might have a shot at the pyramids in Birka, so I swapped to masonry (I'm half way through alpha), would solve my cap problems. 685 saw the first barb archer attack on Uppsala. The warrior survived and axes are on stream now. Research slider at 70% and +1 gold. Caps not a real problem with silver and gold. Here's MM for open borders in 770.

I signed with Roosevelt in 745, they both had 3 cities and I have 4. In this screen shot I'm hovering over the corn, and the percentage is slowly dropping; I'm going to have to go to war soonish as I can't afford to lose that corn, but the axes are arriving and a spearman as a stack protector from any horsy type things. I'd done some trading, built some archers for city protection and survived barb attacks in Upsala without much problem, managing to stop them pillaging.

I spotted Mehmet had built another city 2NW of the iron and I couldn't afford to let him have that so I went to war with 7 axes and a spear in 325. Mehmet's iron city (2 archers) fell for no loss and left a pile of rubble so I went after Erdine (20% , 2 archers and a warrior) with the rest of the stack and it fell in 265, cost me an axe. I took it with the spearman, having just one axe unused. Seems to be about right.

... and while re-inforcements arrived I healed up. Construction came in 145 and I switched to CoL as I'm going to need Courthouses fast. We took Istanbul in 115, and he's got one city left I guess, as there are no cities showing when I talk to him. It'll not be strongly defended so I'll have that as fast as I can and probably raze it. Then it'll be time for another think. However The plan has been followed. You can see loads of barbs over to the left of the screenshot, I have no idea where anyone else is.

We took Ankara in 20AD - it cost me 2 CR2 axes and a CR1 axe, but I got 4 workers - not a bad deal. I whipped the Pyramids for 2 pop in Birka. I was exploring with a Warrior in the SW and spotted Roosevelt behind the Barbs. Given that the area is all jungle, I'm going to let them fight it out and clear it up a bit for me. 7 cities at 20-AD is a lot, I need infrastructure now.

Here's the map :

and a foreign affairs report:

I think I've played this reasonably well so far but I await the public humiliation as usual. I think a period of retrenchment is in order, and now I need to work out which cities are going to do what. I've got a CR3 axe, so I can do Heroic Epic when it comes along. I guess I need to explore a bit further in the SE too.

As ever comments are welcome. I do think I made a better job of this start than the first one though.


Gamefile 20AD

 

[hvevo]

Definitely better work than with the first one. However, I would have razed Edirne and replaced it on the coast 2E. Then you could have had a decent Iron city with bananas. Furthermore, you should have razed Ankara, its maintenance costs are a pain even with courthouses. You didin't need the city anyway, there are horses west of Nidaros.

What for did you build the Pyramids; will you be running SE (sorry, can't look at the save at, will check it out at home)? Could you post GNP, power and technology screens as well?

 

[ChienFou]

Thanks for the comment about Edrine. It's another of my systematic errors, keeping cities I should raze. I do have iron in the 2nd border pop of Uppsala and am going to bring it on-line, so the iron was not part of my thinking.
I did agonise over Ankara, but it had oven ready horses and I'm nowhere close to those. As for the Pyramids, I figured I could swap between Rep and Pol St as I intend to spend much of the game at war. I'll enjoy watching mehmet blink out in the replay - I think it's the fastest I've ever taken out a civ and that is due to the higher focus I'm giving to The Plan

Here's the power graph,

... and the GNP

... and the will trade/won't trade screen

I've changed the save file slightly, still 20AD, but I hit enter before saving it last time and had posted the autosave. It's now the version I played.

 

[ChienFou]

This post is by way of a thank you to everyone who helped me with the micro-management of my early games in this thread and the CFP Game 1. I played another off-line game this week, getting Bismark out of the bag. I eventually won by Diplomacy by keeping one good friend and building the UN with 55% of the World population (including 2 vassals and 2 ko's). But I concentrated on what you'd all said to me in these two threads and ended up with running Police State, Free religion and had a HE/IW city pumping 17XP Panzers 3 every four turns. "Vote for me or I blitzkrieg you" . I'd have won by domination eventually but it would have involved an Armada and invasion and I ended up with my best score ever.

So, since the CFP series, I have gained a Cultural win with advice from cabert; a domination and a diplomatic win with all your help. Thank you all. I think I can now stick to Prince.

ChienFou