Challenge #6: Ironman

[patagonia]

To Voice of Unreason's post:

Spoiler :

Not really... but the xp does seem to focus into a few units due to how the combat system works. In addition, it seems like the AI spends a decent amount of time building armies, so that in each of my games there was a definite lull in the attacks. The units I have produced during that time seem to be fine until I get hit by multiple stacks like Cabledawg posted... Once the AI breaks through those first few units, it's all downhill quickly.

Doesn't seem to be a trend I guess... but would have helped me somewhat. Plus Theology (600 or so less than Engineering when you count Monotheism) seems a lot more in reach than Engineering... I'm going to try once more and see if units starting at 9 xp make a big difference.

I've also noticed that territory is really hard to defend. Has anyone tried Construction and trying to build a ring around your improvements. With the oceans it seems like that might help... But I'm probably just grasping at straws...

In response:

Spoiler :

As I understand it, the combat mechanics surrounding forts are broken in Vanilla. The city guardian promotion line is supposed to apply inside them, but doesn't (this was fixed in Warlords), meaning that they're not nearly as effective as they should be. Bearing that in mind, I'm not sure if trying to hold off the AI on the hills to the southwest is going to be all that successful, especially if it has the sense to just bypass the fort and pillage/attack regardless. Then again, if it does attack the fort(s), rotating longbows between them and the capital could allow you to build up more high-level units before the situation becomes really dire.

It's not really on-topic for this thread, but I do feel that units passing an occupied fort without attacking should suffer some sort of collateral damage to make them worthwhile.

 

[Raiser]

In response to patagonia:

Spoiler :

It's not really on-topic for this thread, but I do feel that units passing an occupied fort without attacking should suffer some sort of collateral damage to make them worthwhile.

1. That's the most interesting idea I’ve heard for fixing forts. Flak tactics would add a clever new angle to territory defence.

2. Are you saying that forts are a valid tactic in Warlords? I've never been tempted to try them before. Except in a single-square bottleneck between a peak & coast, and even then I wasn't that impressed.

Just to amuse myself I might try a single-city coastal location here. Somewhere in the north-east corner. Then go for a small ring of forts and longbowmen. At least it will give better options for cycling units in and out of the front line. I might actual see my towns last a little longer and spread the stacks. But I can't see it going the distance to 1600's.

 

[lilnev]

Howdy folks! Well I'm impressed. My own game is currently slightly past 1000 AD. It'll last a while longer, but I don't think I'll be threatening the leaders with it. Some thoughts:

Spoiler :

I settled SSW, between the cows and the horses. AH-Wheel-Mining-BW-Pottery. Built a worker first, getting the horse pasteurized as fast as possible, then ~3 warriors, then immortals. As a result, and with some fogbusting to the north and east, I didn't have too many problems with the barbs, and expanded to five cities. Oracle->Metal Casting. Eventually Great Prophet -> Civil Service, but in retrospect I think it was a waste. I want to be in Vassalage anyway, and macemen won't be very relevent. I've tried to build a cottage economy, and I'm still running at 50% science, working on Machinery. I think really blowing this challenge open will require teching to something like Chemistry. From where I am now, that's only four techs away: Guilds, gunpowder, engineering, chemistry. But those are long techs. Maybe it would be possible to pick up a couple of GEs from forges?

A few other things I tried: pillaging stacks didn't work well. One bad die roll, and my spearman dies to a horse archer, and then the whole stack goes. Building catapults to bombard his stacks was not particularly effective, either.

Two other ideas: Don't build forts on those SW hills, put a city there! The AI almost always throws itself against the first city in it's way, plus then you get the city bonus for your longbows.
Another idea -- would it work to keep an active corps of troops between yourself and the AI, murdering any units that wander your way before they can see your cultural boundaries? If the AI doesn't know where you live, it might not send massive stacks at you, even though you're at war. I don't know if it would actually work, but it might be worth trying.

peace,
lilnev, First Citizen

 

[Cabledawg]

Im playing the game now and got to this point where I believe is the best Ive gotten too. Im at 25AD and havent met another civ. I have 3 nice cities, decent economy running 60% @ +1GPT....plenty of axemen for defending the barbs, doing well in tech. Im 42 turns from Feudalism, but as the cottages mature and libraries come on line, itll get down to 20ish. Once I hit that, Im turning everything off.

My 3 cities are again on the east coast and 2 are on a hill. If any start will do well its this one. Im posting this save and ill bet someone can get to 1800. Ill be continueing this save as well tonight.

 

[Cabledawg]

Im at 1160 now with 25 Longbowmen and a smattering of others including speamen medics turtled up in the city walls. I also have 5 Longbowmen guarding the gold and the enemy isnt touching that which is nice. I cut off research at Feudalism and have 652 @ -2GPT.

I dont think thats gonna be enough cash. Not sure what Im gonna do when the point comes where Im losing 30GPT. I even deleted some archers, axemen and spearmen. Ive been slaving every Longbowman and have a new found respect for whipping. I have also turned on citizen automation and emphasize gold and food. That seems to be working really well. I can get a Longbow out of a city about every 3- 4 turns depending on what has been pillaged or what tile the enemy is standing on.

 

[Cabledawg]

Im now at 1310 with 38 Longbows and havent lost 1. Im at 620 Gold losing 9GPT. Ive stopped slaving cuz its costing me too much cash.
Im gonna go get a bite, but I need some advice....should I keep all the longbows in each city as they are now or, at a point where a monster stack is coming.....prolly riflemen or Cavalry....should I abandon my front 2 cities and head to the Alamo (Susa).
Susa is on a hill as well. Ill be abandoning about 20 GPT as well if I do that, but I would gain the fact that even a monster stack by multiple civs would get 1 strike per longbow. Ill be back.

 

[Cabledawg]

Now at 1560AD and lost 13 Longbows in capitol. I have 38 Left. But Im at 180 Gold losing 10GPT. Thats bad. If I dont lose any more men, that puts me too 1665AD....at which point, ill have to disband units like crazy.

 

[idiot_savant]

To lilnev:

Spoiler :

I was thinking much the same about Chemistry, but that's a lot of tech to find w/o GL. It would be hard to pull off the GEs as Metal Casting is also a long tech -- though easier than Fuedalism -- and w/o forges you won't be able to get the GE rolling.

Oracle/Metal Casting/GE gambit anyone? Anyone successfully pull that off at Immortal? If I understand the process, settling in place and building cities on horses and bronze would be sweet. It would also give you cities that overlap...

I was thinking of how you could pop a GA quickly for Feudalism, but the tech tree doesn't seem to work well for that either... anyone else trying this approach? A GE can pop Feudalism as well, and there aren't many early techs until then... Still seems like a perfect game scenario.

I'm also wondering if "a good offense is the best defense" approach might have some benefit. Has anyone tried settling the horses and popping out Immortals quickly and crush Alexander, etc.? If you could catch their cities when they only have archers, it might be enough to build up quickly. I found that until the barbs get Axemen, it is pretty easy to defend cities (on hills) with small garrisons.

It seems like Cabledawg has max'd out the Feudalism/longbow approach.

 

[Cabledawg]

Heres 1660 and Ive lost my other 2 cities. Guess I dont have to worry about losing gold now. I could have easily supported more troops. Ive got 13 Longbows and 1 medic spear in Susa. But, that city has seen no action, so they have just the basic promotions. I think Ill be done by 1675.

 

[Cabledawg]

Done at 1680AD. I think the reason my 1755AD save went well was due to early wars by the AI against each other and the fact that I met Alex well before any of the others so I gained some XP from him before the monster stacks came. It could also be that I settled the capitol further east than this last try and thats prolly 5 more tiles the AI has to traverse to find me.

 

[Zaimejs]

Well that was fun... I made it to 1180, which is a big leap for me! I never got longbowmen... got stuck on mathematics. I had three cities... and almost a source of iron, but i couldn't hold it. I keep hoping to get lucky and settle on a bronze or iron mine... hasn't happened yet. I had iron for a few turns in another game... what a difference that makes.

I can't seem to get away from the computer... how do you guys move away without running into them? This time, I just settled on the nearest hill, built walls and held on with a bunch of archers. Had my highest one with over 60 XP. Then came the catapults

 

[Cabledawg]

Ill give you a few hints from my games.

Spoiler :

Dont pop all the huts, leave some so the barbs can settle on it and make a barb town. Did anyone else think of this?

Get pottery as fast as you feel safe doing so. Start cottaging those floodplains.

Do not...I repeat...Do not fogbust. Its counterintutive from what youre used too, but any fogbusting will only mean meeting the other civs earlier. It also gives you free XP for your archers.

I ignored any wonders. The only one I might try is Stonehenge instead of the Oracle. Heres why. The Oracle is too hard to get without sacrificing your military. It also takes you along a tech path at a time when the barbs are the most raging. You will need axemen to protect those cottages and mines. Stonehenge is easier to get and youll need masonry for the walls anyway.

Getting a barracks out when the barbs are rolling in can be tough, chop trees and slavery to get it out faster.

If an AI meets you before 0AD...you might as well start over.

In a city, there are only a few critical things you need
Graineries....makes whipping more effective
Libraries....makes all future techs faster
Barracks
Walls

I researched Archery first while growing. I did not put a worker out till size 3 or 4 I believe. Put some hammers in a warrior or barracks....if you work a floodplain, youll grow to size 2 right when you discover archery. Get out 2 archers till size 4, then worker. Send the worker out for a mine or chop/whip a barracks. The added benifit to growing first is the extra coins the floodplains have.

Once you get Axemen and Libraries....beeline for Monarchy and Feudalism. After Feud, turn off research completely. In one of my test ganes, I went on to get Civil Service....but I ran out of money and couldnt support my longbowmen.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Ill give you a few hints from my games.

Didn't match my experiences, details below the fold.

Spoiler :

Dont pop all the huts, leave some so the barbs can settle on it and make a barb town. Did anyone else think of this?

I don't believe it works that way. Normally, when a barb finds a hut he fortifies himself there. I've never seen one form a town on a hut.

Get pottery as fast as you feel safe doing so. Start cottaging those floodplains.

I think I tried that, and failed miserably. It may have been a sequencing error on my part (I discovered later that I wasn't quite coordinating my workers correctly for building the Oracle), I don't have the energy to go back and check.

Do not...I repeat...Do not fogbust. Its counterintutive from what youre used too, but any fogbusting will only mean meeting the other civs earlier. It also gives you free XP for your archers.

You're going to have to explain to me how fogbusting along the coast causes me to meet the AI sooner. And as far as I'm concerned, XP for the archers is not worth the hassle. The XP will be plentiful soon enough.

My game may have been atypical, though - I got two scouts from huts, so my barb watch had four points (initial scout, initial warrior), covering almost every plot north and east of the capital.

I ignored any wonders. The only one I might try is Stonehenge instead of the Oracle. Heres why. The Oracle is too hard to get without sacrificing your military. It also takes you along a tech path at a time when the barbs are the most raging. You will need axemen to protect those cottages and mines. Stonehenge is easier to get and youll need masonry for the walls anyway.

What has Masonry to do with Stonehenge? I didn't find that I needed to sacrifice military at all to build the Oracle (that's what the second city is for, after all). I think this is an era thing - during what period were you building the Oracle, and how many barb units invaded your cultural borders during that time? My guess is that you were building it late (because you ran off to Pottery first), and you had more barbs (because you weren't fog busting).

I also have no idea how Stonehenge is going to be useful here - are you building it for the Prophet points?

Getting a barracks out when the barbs are rolling in can be tough, chop trees and slavery to get it out faster.

Rolling in? The barbs? See above.

If an AI meets you before 0AD...you might as well start over.

I didn't find that to be true at all - if it starts sending stacks that early, maybe.

In a city, there are only a few critical things you need
Graineries....makes whipping more effective
Libraries....makes all future techs faster
Barracks
Walls

I'm not sold on walls - I built them, but catapults make them pretty irrelevant, as do the gunpowder units.

I researched Archery first while growing. I did not put a worker out till size 3 or 4 I believe. Put some hammers in a warrior or barracks....if you work a floodplain, youll grow to size 2 right when you discover archery. Get out 2 archers till size 4, then worker.

If you got two archers out, you were probably growing slower than I was.

Send the worker out for a mine or chop/whip a barracks. The added benifit to growing first is the extra coins the floodplains have.

Likewise, if you settled for one worker, you were building your improvements at half speed.

At some point, I hope to compare your 1755 save to my best effort (because clearly you lasted longer than I did, so I didn't get something right).

There's another possibility - I may have been running with Blake's AI mod, which should make the city locations of the AI more effective. So I should compare our wonder dates, and AI city locations, as well.

 

[clinton]

I played this challenge once through to about 300BC, but I over expanded before I got monarchy and it was strike time. I noticed the lack of happiness resources really hurts, your cities being limited to size 4. Monarchy would of meant wines + heriditary rule, which means bigger cities and more cottages and more income. A good learning experience in any case. Otherwise I was going ok, already taken two greek cities. Anyway, I learn.

In any case, I really enjoyed this challenge, and I'm looking forward to more always war challenges in the future. It would be good if this "iron man" challenge becomes a regular event.

I would particularly be interested in a post patch warlords game like this. Keep the difficulty at immortal, it keeps things interesting without being crazy like deity. One thing I would do is remove a lot of the huts, at least the ones near the player, to remove a bit of the randomness in the early game so strategies are more easily compared. Also, if you are going to allow people to replay the map, you should maybe explicitly note that people can go into the world builder and look at the original map, as just playing through once will reveal the same information. Maybe people should note whether it is their first try and they haven't viewed the map or their 2nd or subsequent try and they've seen the map and where the resources are.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Otherwise I was going ok, already taken two greek cities. Anyway, I learn.

Heh - it never occurred to me to try to take the battle to the enemy.

And the cruel children begin mocking me:

BILLLLLLLL derrrrrrrrr
BILLLLLLLL derrrrrrrrr
BILLLLLLLL derrrrrrrrr
BILLLLLLLL derrrrrrrrr
....

 

[Zaimejs]

I still have no idea how you people do any of this. I improved one square... a mine, and put two archers on it, but it was taken after only a few years and destroyed. I still have yet to build and hold onto an improvement. Every time I settle, I'm right next to a Civ...

How could you possibly have time to build enough units to take over a city while producing libraries and oracles... and not be wiped out by stacks of attack?

I just don't get it. I can't even get to feudalism.

 

[patagonia]

Heh - it never occurred to me to try to take the battle to the enemy.

I simply figured that while it may be possible to Immortal-rush one AI, there's no way I'd be able to out-produce the remainder sufficiently to carry the war to them across the map.

In any case, I really enjoyed this challenge, and I'm looking forward to more always war challenges in the future. It would be good if this "iron man" challenge becomes a regular event.

Welcome to the challenge thread.

There have been several previous ones that are linked to in Raiser and Carl Corey's sigs. All much "easier" in one sense (staying alive), but focusing on refining strategy to exploit a particular aspect of the game. I guess you could argue that this one's about refining your survival strategy!

Also, if you are going to allow people to replay the map, you should maybe explicitly note that people can go into the world builder and look at the original map, as just playing through once will reveal the same information. Maybe people should note whether it is their first try and they haven't viewed the map or their 2nd or subsequent try and they've seen the map and where the resources are.

Since this is an informal thing with no prize (short of starting the next challenge thread), people are free to try as many times as they like, so long as each attempt is started from 4000BC. It's primarily about trying a variety of approaches (or refining a single one) to get the best outcome towards a random goal, and hopefully learning something that improves your general gameplay in the process.

 

[cabert]

I still have no idea how you people do any of this. I improved one square... a mine, and put two archers on it, but it was taken after only a few years and destroyed. I still have yet to build and hold onto an improvement. Every time I settle, I'm right next to a Civ...

How could you possibly have time to build enough units to take over a city while producing libraries and oracles... and not be wiped out by stacks of attack?

I just don't get it. I can't even get to feudalism.

with this save, you don't start next to a civ
+ fogbusting (= fortifying some units, on hills preferably for larger sight, to clear the fog of war. Barbs only spawn in the fog of war)
+ huts give you techs (i have popped archery in every single trial!)
+ holding an improvement isn't necessary at all, just rebuild
+ more cities = less barbs (less room!)
+ chopping hard for the Oracle will also clear forests around your cities = you can attack barbs/ais coming for you

IMHO the best unit for this challenge is the worker!

 

[Splattery]

So I made it to 1680 on my first attempt, and while my next attempt was less successful (only late 1500's) I did get the pleasure of seeing a level 16 longbow with 226 battles under his belt. He died unfortunately two turns later, so I don't know exactly how many XP he had. Anyway, enclosed in the spoiler thingy (I hope I do this correctly - this is the first time I have posted!) are some of my observations:

Spoiler :

So it struck me that to survive I would need to absolutely minimize troop losses and focus on getting longbows (which, heavily promoted, are a match for most of the troops the AT throws at you for quite some time). I settled immediately and built a barracks (you have to work one of the forests for the extra production), researched archery, then a path to writing while building three archers. The barbs leave you alone for several turns, so there's time to get at least one fortified promoted archer in play. Build a library, and start the tech path to oracle and monarchy. The idea is to Oracle Feudalism, which you should be able to do if you don't mess around with things like workers and bronze and such. In fact, I didn't create a worker the entire game. The forests and flood plains are just fine for the city's needs. Ideally, you want the Oracle one turn after Monarchy, so you can in the meantime make two scientists (thanks to the library) to accelerate your GP as needed to balance production/science (either scientist for academy or prophet for the very useful gold and hammers). That's really the only tricky part - getting the timing right. Meanwhile, I had 91 gold from huts (I got no techs from huts) so I moved science down a bit to get 4 extra gold to promote my first longbow. Switch to vassalage and monarchy, and keep making longbows. Just make sure to give one a medic 1 at some point, but the others can just get hill and city defense. Meanwhile, tech to Literature and make Heroic Epic. You actually don't need anything (forge, granary maybe) too complicated. I didn't start losing units until well into the late 1300's, and even then you end up with a bunch of very qualified defenders in the city.

Admittedly, this is not the most glamorous way to do it, but it is kind of fun watching the swarms of units impaling themselves on your longbows. If you turn off the battle animation, you can finish in like a half hour...

 

[carl corey]

Splattery: Welcome, and nice job on your first challenge! You wouldn't happen to have a save from the last turn of your most succesful try, would you? Anyway, I just read your spoiler and the strategy is pretty different from most things I've seen so far. Guess it's not that cut and dry after all. I have a question though: did you build a second city? I got the impression that you did not from your post. That might actually improve your strategy, since a well placed second city doesn't get attacked too much and so you don't need many defenders and it can still perform useful tasks.

I still haven't managed to give this a second try; I got lost in a Rome game in Warlord. Imperialistic & Praetorians makes for so much fun!