Challenge-I-10

[WastinTime]

OR doesn't do anything for buildings because you don't have a religion yet. It's only for Missionaries.

The missionaries can be made before Pentagon + Theoc kicks in, so you aren't making tanks yet anyway.

Yes Chris, I use a golden age to save 2 turns (religion change + civics change). It also gets those first few tanks out at 1/turn.

I roll out 9xp tanks. That way they get to promote and heal on their first attack.

TMIT: The 10xp tanks are very desirable. Odds of winning go up dramatically. That's why I used Artillery for the first few attacks. Otherwise I'd have lost many of those 9xp tanks. Yes, there are a few too many tanks by the end, but slow part is the first couple AI.

 

[cabert]

I tried going for vassalge + theo straight away, and got the pentagon, so I had 9 XP tanks soon enough, but I don't know how to get the hammers early enough.

Also, Gandhi is harder to capitulate than one would think.

 

[narri]

With Police State + Forge + Factory + Power (Coal) + State Prop, you need 84/2.35 = 35.74 base hammers. Practically speaking, 34 or 35 is totally fine because winning this challenge is a 40 turn affair, so you'd get a 2-turn tank maybe once. That's about 3.8-4 base hammers a pop right after the GA is done (later it will be easy to get the required hammers with more pop). This implies rivers are excellent (Levee), with watermills and workshops galore (though some lumbermills/mines/farms are needed to keep health/pop up).

My current plans are:
1) Roll for Oil and Coal with rivers in the vicinity to settle at. Oil doesn't need to be in the BFC of any of your cities necessarily (but you do need rails ASAP), because you only need to Oil have when you start tanks (so ring 3 of capital may work depending on timing).
2) Revolt US+Buero+Serfdom+Merc+OR on turn 0 before any moves. US for rushbuy whatever (usually to speed workers or missionary 1 turn where needed). Serfdom really cuts down on time to build things (especially anything in floodplain/desert tiles and mills/shops). Merc gives a free engineer to get most of Pentagon done with a GE. OR for spreading religion on turn 6 when the religions are given out. If you get a lucky autospread and you have 1 too many missionaries, spread to a city in your first target.
3) The AI start with 4 settlers each, but most of them don't find places for them as quickly as you do. Get good real estate. Ideally the first few AI's cities won't be on hills.
4) First few turns you settle and get some workers. I still haven't found the sweet spot yet between too many and too few (currently build 3 workers in cap, 2 in second city and 1 in the city that gets the religion).
5) Capital should run Engineer as free spec. After workers, its Factory, Coal Plant, Levee in some order. Factory allows more engineers, put 2 or 3 as feasible.
6) Engineer in cap builds 80% of Pentagon, cap finishes it off. Second GP can be from either of the other two cities (the more food rich one). Run anything at all, just get that great person, which will be used for GA.
At start of GA revolt to Police State, Vassalage, Theocracy, State Property, leave Serfdom alone. At the last turn of the GA, switch to Caste System to get the +1 hammer in workshops.
7) Other 2 cities have workers/missionaries, followed by Factory,Coal Plant, Levee, then Barracks, then "*Tank".
8) 0% research until the GA begins (or at last turn, if you keep US until then). You won't get much research to start anyways.

You get 9 or 12 tanks (most have 9XP), and look for first target next to you (good ones are cities you can strike at the same turn as DoW, and those that envelop a third rival to make the next war quicker). Most defenders are Marines and Infantry when you DoW. Anti-Tanks come out turn 2 or 3 of the war (meaning you must strike swiftly). Tanks can also be there if your opponent is blessed with oil.

The most important thing is to strike quickly with overwhelming numbers. Ideally the war is over the turn after you DoW because your target wants to capitulate.

Research towards Rocketry in case anyone builds Manhattan. Prioritize Uranium targets if this looks like it will happen. You may end up getting Manhattan yourself and replacing the "*Tank" with "*ICBM" to get rid of the last few holdout cities.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Yes Chris, I use a golden age to save 2 turns (religion change + civics change). It also gets those first few tanks out at 1/turn.

OK, thanks.

I tried going for vassalge + theo straight away, and got the pentagon, so I had 9 XP tanks soon enough, but I don't know how to get the hammers early enough.

Ahem, how do you get your religion to spread if you go Theocracy right away?

That was a mistake I made in my first game (Domination-win), ignoring I couldn't build any missionaries ...

Also, Gandhi is harder to capitulate than one would think.

Strange. In my first game, he capitulated after 3 turns, IIRC, and in the second game, he capitulated after the first turn.


Stalin, OTOH, had to be completely destroyed in both games!

In the first game, he had only Moscow left with some 6 units, and he still refused to capitulate. I went on with the next AI, and sent my Vassals to attack Moscow, and after a few turns, he was finally willing to accept his faith.

In the second game, he was down to 1 small coastal city, I destroyed all but 1 defender (2 unlucky losses ), but he still didn't capitulate that turn. Next turn, when I could have completely wiped him out, he was finally willing to give in ...

My current plans are:

Thanks, narri!

In fact, you (and WastinTime) don't start too much different than I did, except for that clever Civic-swap with a GA at the beginning (religion and theocracy included), and building the Pentagon.

But, those must really have a huge impact, as there are 24/25 turns between our finish-dates! Some turns can be explained because you are simply better than me, but that can't be too many in this setup ...


But another question: In my first attempt, I went Caste System from the beginning; but after ~15-20 turns, I had huge happiness problems for not having Emancipation, so I had to switch?!?

 

[Ozbenno]

But another question: In my first attempt, I went Caste System from the beginning; but after ~15-20 turns, I had huge happiness problems for not having Emancipation, so I had to switch?!?

You don't really need any research so bump up the culture slider.

 

[Indiansmoke]

This setting is a well explored multiplayer setting.

there is a specific optimal plan which is as follows.

Civics:
First: US (to rush buy workers), Bureocracy, serfdom, merchandilism, organized

Goal is to have 9-10 workers at the beggining improve land, spread religion build barracks and factory in every city and then switch to non stop tanks (every city should make a tank a turn or at worst 2 tanks every 3 turns). In qucick speed directly building improvements over forests saves worker turns so it is better to do that rather than chop first.

This initial stage should not be more than 10 turns max.

After initial stage switch to: Police state, bureocracy, caste system, state property and theocracy

Vassalage is not needed but you could go for it if capital has enough production.

Questions are:
1. do you go for 4th settler? In theory you should as it could be done in 1 turn with syncronized chops in capital. The extra city will pay off fast.

Improvements should be food resources and then mines and workshops everywhere (even on horse for example)

You should not spend more than 1 turn building worker or settler in cities, synchronizing chops in order to get everything in 1 turn is important

The first great person should be used for golden age for civic switches and religion in theory. So this great person you should get by turn 10.

So with 4 cities making 6 tanks every 2 turns, you should have 18 tanks in 6 turns by turn 14 or something

with plenty of worker to rail in a couple of turns first opponent will be gone..no way the ai will have anything in 15 turns to defend 18 CR2 tanks.

Then it should be a matter of 3-4 turns for every other ai.

So in theory around 35 turns should be the optimal for this...unless map placement helps and you can take care of multiple ai's at once in which case it it could drop to 30 turns or less

I will definatelly give this a try when I get some time...

 

[kcd_swede]

This setting is a well explored multiplayer setting.

there is a specific optimal plan which is as follows.

...

It will be interesting to see how that goes for you. I just followed the steps elucidated by Narri above, and got a 1985 finish. My first Deity win on anything but seriously nerfed Tiny/duel maps.

I think I could have finished circa 1965AD or so, if I (a) opened multiple fronts earlier, (b) Rooseveldt would capitulate (he was last victim and had to be fully annihilated!), and (c) I saw Roosi sneak a new city into razed Indian territory -- which alone added 3 turns of travel to get there.

I did a lot of sub-optimal warring... razed a city I should have kept just to keep Ethiopian culture from slowing my supply lines- which again added at least a couple turns to my victory.

I'm not planning to play this again, though. My goal is just to qualify for the Series by completing each game, with little regard to my placing until that is accomplished (if possible).

I've already learned a LOT about how to improve my games. These games are very challenging for me and require that I really push myself to get better. As they say at McDonald's, I'm Lovin' it!

To the Series creators: and

Thanks also to all who share their strategies and thoughts on each game. It doesn't seem as impossible as I first believed (2 down, 8 to go).

 

[WastinTime]

Questions are:
1. do you go for 4th settler? In theory you should as it could be done in 1 turn with syncronized chops in capital. The extra city will pay off fast.

This was a good plan in vanilla Civ. I don't think it works in BTS. Settlers are too expensive in late era starts.

 

[Ozbenno]

This was a good plan in vanilla Civ. I don't think it works in BTS. Settlers are too expensive in late era starts.

Agreed, the cost to cash rush a settller is huge compared to the alternatives of factory/coal plant/tank you could be building.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

This was a good plan in vanilla Civ. I don't think it works in BTS. Settlers are too expensive in late era starts.

Firm agreement with WastinTime's comments above:

It's much cheaper to lose a Tank or two capturing an enemy City than founding your own.

Settlers are 274H in Modern Quick BtS.

Noe that Settlers are only 65H in Modern Quick Warlords (probably the same in Vanilla Civ4).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Indiansmoke]

In general yes settlers are very expensive in BTS so compared to vanilla it is not worth it.

BUT, if the capital has many chops what do you do with them? It is common to get something like 10 forests in capital, you can use 2-3 for factory and workers but the rest are not needed for units as you can make 1 turn tanks in capital without chops.

So what do you do with them? Put them in some wonder? 5 chops will give you settler in 1 turn. So if there is a good city spot near by then after workers factory and barracks it might be worth it to build wealth for a turn or 2 while the chops gather and you grow and then make 1 turn settler.

Of course all that is because you are not spiritual, because if you were spiritual you would switch to religion and theocracy turn 7 and start pumping 2 promo tanks turn 7, thus use the chops for tanks.

Now as it is to not waste 2 turns in anarchy you have to wait for great person, which will not come before turn 12 or something....That is 5 turns more during which you have to decide where capital chops go...do you really need the extra 2 exp from pentagon? Or will an extra city pay off better?

 

[WastinTime]

I don't know about you, Indiansmoke, but I can get 2 great people out by turn 12. Golden Age turn 7 or 8, Pentagon turn 11 or 12. Change religion on turn 8. Civics turn 12 or 13

 

[Indiansmoke]

I don't know about you, Indiansmoke, but I can get 2 great people out by turn 12. Golden Age turn 7 or 8, Pentagon turn 11 or 12. Change religion on turn 8. Civics turn 12 or 13

WOW, with how many workers?

 

[WastinTime]

I only make 2-3 workers. I just finished that game in 34 turns! 1956 AD.

 

[killercane]

There's another strong strategy that no has mentioned. Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?

 

[playshogi]

There's another strong strategy that no has mentioned. Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?

Engineers, industrial park?

 

[Ozbenno]

Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?

Great Generals, killing stuff

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Great Generals, killing stuff

Killing military units inside one's Cultural Boundary provides +100% Great General Points.

However, Great Engineers are probably more important than Great Generals in this Challenge. The Tanks are already highly promoted with Barracks, Vassalage, Theocracy and The Pentagon and they either sustain a lot (disband) or little damage. So Medic 3 Warlords aren't really that valueable. Also, C2CR3 Warlord Tanks can't kill that much better than CR3 Tanks (1 more XP needed after freshly built). The biggest factor is the Tanks can be built faster than they can be utilized.

Maybe Great Generals could win this Game a turn earlier, but I have my doubts. It's far more important to generate Great Engineers as quickly as possible very early in the Game.

Just my two cents worth,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Ozbenno]

3 Great Generals allows 10XP (ie CR3) tanks out of your three production cities, this makes a big difference.

EDIT: Is this right, 3xp for barracks, 2 for theocracy and 2 for vassalage, 2 for GG only makes 9, if not you need 6 for CR3 out of the gate, alot harder.

1 GE for Pentagon, 1 (of any kind) for a Golden Age, do you need another (Ironworks in a poor production city maybe), this can be done pretty easily in every situation.

I'd say getting 3 GGs as quick as can be does make a difference but I'm sure I'm missing something, which is probably why I find these types of games very hard and frustrating (haven't attempted it yet)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

There's another strong strategy that no has mentioned. Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?

Great Artists!

Great Artist Farm!

Now, how does a Great Artist help Win a War? When you can answer that, you just may have a viable strategy. Or you may determine that Great Artists are just too expensive for their War role.

Sun Tzu Wu