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Challenge-V-03

Discussion in 'Hall of Fame Challenger Series' started by Ozbenno, Jun 4, 2011.

  1. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Location:
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    While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

    (*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

    Settings:
    • Victory Condition: Diplomatic (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    • Difficulty: Emperor
    • Starting Era: Ancient
    • Map Size: Standard
    • Map Type: Archipelago
    • Speed: Quick
    • Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
    • Civ: England (Churchill)
    • Opponents: Must include Egypt (Ramesses II), France (Napoleon), India (Gandhi), Mongolia (Genghis Khan), Rome (Julius Caesar), Russia (Catherine), Zulu (Shaka)
    • Version: 3.19.003
    • Date: 6th June to 6th October 2011
    The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
     
  2. colonelmustard

    colonelmustard Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Just looking at the settings, I expected the the map and the opponents to be the tough hurdle here, but I ran into an unexpected problem. I recently had (lost) a game where I had just the kind of set up I was looking for: large landmass with almost all the AI, where one religion dominated. Everyone, including me, had adopted Hinduism, except for Ghandi (Buddhism), Lincoln (Confucianism), and Genghis Khan (really angry ;) ). All of my Hindu buddies were Friendly or Pleased with me all game. I finished the UN right around 1700 AD. None of the Hindu group I was in had a "worst enemy" that wasn't Ghengis, Lincoln, or Ghandi.

    So, here's what I don't understand. The turn after I finished the UN, Frederick adopted Free Religion and became pleased with me, where he was previously Friendly. I did some lopsided trading and gifting of techs to get him Friendly again, and later even changed to Universal Suffrage to better please him.

    But for 200 years to follow, he voted for Lincoln, who himself remained in Confucianism. I had +14 with Frederick and he had +3 with Lincoln, but he continued to vote for Lincoln again and again. I don't know how many Diplomatic Victory votes I put up in those 200 years, but I'd guess it was 10-15. There was seemingly nothing I could do to get either of them to stop trading with each other, declare on each other, or even go back to adopting a religious civic that would again make him Hindu and give him a "heathen" diplo hit with Lincoln. Khan and Ghandi were lost causes if I were to keep appropriate diplo to keep getting everyone else to vote for me.

    Any guesses?
     
  3. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    A vassal will always vote for its master (unless the vassal is a candidate). Maybe that's why?
     
  4. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    This was my first thought as well. There are hidden modifiers as well but they are usually in the order of 1 or 2 points, not 10 :confused:
     
  5. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Unless you are planning to take on several Vassals yourself, you definitely want the "No Vassals" option for any Diplomatic Victory game.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  6. colonelmustard

    colonelmustard Chieftain

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    Yeah, not sure what was going on here. Despite having played through enough to lose, the most recent save I had to go back to was 1000AD. I tried to go back and replay some of it to see if I could recreate the weirdness, but could not - still couldn't eek out a diplo win either - but at least the diplo numbers all made sense to me this time. I was playing with vassals on, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't Lincoln's vassal. I was tired, but I don't think I was that tired. I guess it's possible. Stick me in the blooper reel if I'm kissing up to someone else's vassal. :)
     
  7. Ronald

    Ronald Emperor

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    Vienna, Austria
    This game becomes increasingly frustrating. :(
    So far I had 3 serious attempts and all fell short. The last one I thought I had in my bag, but Cathy, who was becoming more and more friendly and I needed her votes became worst enemy of Lincoln, the other civ I still needed to give some attention to. So I was stuck getting only either Cathy or Lincoln but I needed both.:mad:
    In this game I had already some good luck. The largest civ was Napoleon and he was worst enemy of a number of civs. I had several joint wars against Shaka and Kublai Khan. Still, it was not enough.

    Does anybody have some good ideas how to win this game?:confused:
     
  8. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    I will probably do a diplomation. Set for low sea level, snaky islands to create a continent like situation. Kill a few, grow large, and play diplomacy with fewer AI to worry about. You can also add some civs that favor free religion to decrease some of the inter-religion angst (Asoka, Elizabeth). I like Joao for HR shared civic. Hatty can be good one for shared OR, but you want no state religion.
     
  9. Ronald

    Ronald Emperor

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    That's easier said than done! :lol:

    I have extreme difficulties with wars on quick speed. After 6 turns your invading force is obsolete. What is in your opinion the best window of opportunity for successful wars in this setting?

    Any advise appriciated
     
  10. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    At quick speed, you need to keep research going and Open Borders with at least one Civ for foreign trade routes.

    Include more siege units in your stacks and expect to lost a few. After a large number of siege weapons are through with city defenders, you won't need anything more advanced than Chariots or even Archers to kill off the decimated defenders. I would expect that you use at least Axemen, Swordsmen or Horse Archers though.

    Failing that, just bludgeon them to death with superior numbers.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  11. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    I don't play archipelago maps often. I get the sense from comments made by top-notch players that the AI suck on archipelago maps. So you may not want to play a low seas, snaky islands. Obviously, plan on building several transport vessels. Since Churchill begins with fishing, this will help if it is the route you choose.

    Churchill starts with mining and fishing.

    Chariot rush. Requires hunting/agriculture, An Husb, and Wheel. Maybe not the best option, but a two move unit helps with quick speed.

    Axe rush. Requires BW on a river or BW and Wheel. This is doable, but one move units are hurt by quick speed.

    Horse archers war (clearly not a rush)/ Requires hunting, An Husb, wheel, archery, and Horseback riding. Expect a few spearmen by time you get your horse archers going.

    Catapult/Elephants (Also not a rush). This may be the best option for you. Clearly you need Ivory. Possibly try Oracle slingshot for construction.

    Maceman/Trebs. If you can Oracle CS and tech to Engineering and Machinery, this may give you the tech lead you need so your units won't obsolete too quickly.

    You can always sprint to cannons or cuirassiers, but then you are deviating to tech that are not needed for Mass Media.
     
  12. Ronald

    Ronald Emperor

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    @ Sun Tzu Wu and Shulec

    Thanks a lot for your suggestions
     
  13. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Agreed, use high sea level and small islands map option instead.

    Beeline to Sailing first, so you can build Galleys and maybe The Great Lighthouse. Galleys will be your only naval unit for a long time, though Metal Casting at some later point would be good to build a few escorting Triremes. Also, consider building The Colossus after completing Metal Casting, especially if Copper can be connected.

    It will be much easier to find Iron then either Copper or Horse (Horse is a via option though), so your early rush units will be Swordsmen with an occasional Axeman or even Spearman. The AI will also find Copper hard to find, so it may have mounted units and archers as defenders, when your early rush begins.

    On an Archipelago map with Tiny Islands, mounted units aren't all that useful, since naval units can unload your military units adjacent to cities (blocking reinforcement from a the occasional city that may be on the same island). I would focus on building melee units. Note that with the Tiny Islands option, the vast majority of islands will have at most one City, since there usually isn't room and the AI doesn't try to pack cities close together, making multiple city islands even rarer than need be.

    This can be a great option, since you can start with a map that has Ivory. Although Elephants and Catapults are not an early rush, the units can still be rushed out and Elephants are very effective against Civ that lack Iron Working or connected Iron (again Copper is usually rare enough to ignore).

    You can use these units for your final rushes, before focusing on your Diplomacy and Mass Media goals (don't forget to generate a Great Engineer to build most of The United Nations).

    At this point, you will want Astronomy to build Galleons. Its easier when you keep up with naval technology.

    I would say that when Macemen and Trebuchets are too obsolete, make peace and focus totally on Diplomacy/TUN.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  14. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Very luck based settings unfortunately; it's probably possible to win 100% peacefully if you attempt it enough times due to possible religious distros and civic abuse. More likely, you're going to kill a few people. Even with a civ capped and a permanent ally though, I'm still going to win 1st attempt 1900's AD because genghis khan went and capped TWO civs (and the ones that would have liked me enough to vote) before I could do anything to stop it, forcing me to pretty much crush the world into submission. I'm doing so of course, but you won't win early that way ;).
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Hahahahaha!

    I "won" lost by accident when my permanent ally got culture before we had enough vote pop X_X. Not a competitive attempt anyway. Maybe I'll get a better draw on the next attempt. It's pretty reliably easy to win on these settings but doing it quickly is going to be a matter of spawns/religions/worst enemy map hack.
     
  16. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Okay, finished up a OCC version of this. Very annoying with the mix of super warmongers and peacemongers. Failed an attempt by 3 turns (!) that I'll eventually be uploading to youtube...in other words that BULL@#$%#$^ crap where the game forced me to change civics w/o prompt because I happened to press enter to confirm something else (prompt flashed on screen less than half a second) and change back probably cost me the game.

    In the 2nd OCC attempt, I spawned near nappy and shaka :sad:, but shaka couldn't reach me (I had culture bridge there). OCC resources: 2 clam and a corn, PH city tile, 1 dry corn. 4 forests. Yes, I played it. Hit 1200 BC oracle for Civil Service, got confuc on way converting napoleon, who between that, tech sharing, resource trade, OB etc became friendly. He DoW ghandi and I joined in in a fake war :lol:.

    Later on I hit UN 1st, PA nap and nuke/cap everyone but shaka/JC (almost capped JC too) for a diplomation win off OCC PA. Very late 1946 AD win but not bad considering I had to knock heads all over the place. What it lacks in early finish, it makes up for in time it took me to complete the game :lol:. At least I'm on the board for games 1-5 now, and until more people actually play this game I'm #2 :lol:. This one isn't popular!
     
  17. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    This game was a real challenge! I tried first with a peaceful rex GLH/Pyamids game. It took a lot of votes and I never could get the votes needed. I was heading into the mid 1800's and bailed.

    Next try. I got a fractal-like map with 5 AI on a big land mass. I rexed, then went on two cat/elephant wars. They took forever! II finished the second war at about 1500 AD. Teching was very slow. I did not get liberalism, which went in 1300 AD.

    I won on the first vote with support of a large block of Hindus. I got 719 votes and needed 713. My best friend made a late population surge and became my UN opponent, but I was still better liked.

    I think the OCC may be the best way to go. Self tech everything except early techs and don't make any tech or resource trades until you have met everyone. I don't know if adding AI really helped. Going with the required six may be difficult on an OCC, but keeping it at six may be better if not running an occ.

    This is one of the more difficult games in the challenge!
     
  18. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Yeah, I have to agree, this one is difficult.

    I lost my last attempt. 1 vote short on the last vote held. Needed 619 and I got 618, then Julius won a RL DV. Shaka at least helpfully became the monster, and switched from Buddhist, which was shared by 5 of the AI, to no state religion..... but it still wasn't enough.
     
  19. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    I've failed this one several times now, and it is the last one I have left to complete the Challenge before I go back and try to improve some of my lamer games.

    Generally I'm getting the UN pretty early, but am unable to get votes. One common problem is that I get a situation where I need to make 4 AI happy, whereas they all hate each other... and it doesn't help that my UN opponent keeps changing. Getting the UN and then warring has been the way to get both friends and destroy or cap the enemies... but Quick makes that very hard. Have tried the other way... warring then UN, but it doesn't seem to be any better... usually rack up enough negatives by then to make winning by UN futile.

    I'm taking some of the pointers in this thread into my next game... figure one of these games I'll just get lucky with an easier diplo situation... one where I can use a religion, perhaps.

    While I feel luck is a strong component of doing a good finish date, I don't seem to have enough skill to even pull out a slow date. But I don't give up easy. Now for attempt number x-teen. :blush:
     
  20. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Try to get defensive pacts via shared war or Military Tradition. The additional Diplomacy from defensive pacts. Add that to the bonus for shared war and that should be enough of a margin.

    The required AIs are three with high peace weights and three with low peace weights; try to guess/ensure one gets the most Population and join the other side.

    Good luck!

    Sun Tzu Wu
     

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