Change of the missionary mechanics

[stealth_nsk]

It's ok. It was dismissive, but that's fair game. My point wasn't that Civ 7 should regress to Civ 6.

Yep, English is not my native language. So, while I usually handle grammar, nuances or tone could slip away.

Faith and religious buildings would be a carryover from 6, but Civ 7 has a lot in common with 6 already. My other points are not related to 6, so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

Civ7 has all yields spread between all eras, so if faith will be a resource, it will need some representation in all 3 eras and it will be a lot of additional stuff. Same with religious buildings. It surely could be done, but as a material for expansion, not improvement of current religion.

Overall, I think there's a significant difference in approach between Civ6 and Civ7. I wrote about how I dislike religious pressure and similar mechanics and Civ7 is different. It's very transparent (well, at least once UI will be fully settled), but it also quite... goal-oriented. It's like you have a set of quests attached to every part of the game. You could choose whether to aim for them and how, though. And as a bit of achiever, I pretty like it, but I understand how Civ6 more... simulation gameplay could be viewed as more attractive. So, current religion in Civ7 fits this approach very well, they way it mostly affects one age, and so on.

 

[queenpea]

Yep, English is not my native language. So, while I usually handle grammar, nuances or tone could slip away.

No worries, it wasn't the tone that was dismissive.

Civ7 has all yields spread between all eras, so if faith will be a resource, it will need some representation in all 3 eras and it will be a lot of additional stuff. Same with religious buildings. It surely could be done, but as a material for expansion, not improvement of current religion.

I just really disagree here. We have religious themed wonders that deliver both relics and relic slots. In VII currently, we have only the Palace and the Temple buildings that can receive relic slots. In a lot of games, if you are pursuing the religious victory, this means that you have to go and settle new cities in order to reach the 12 displayed relics qualification to fulfill the culture path in Exploration. This is not cultural gameplay and puts a huge emphasis on expansion. Religious buildings could easily be added to provide happiness, culture, science (whatever yield you choose) in addition to relic slots.

It's not up to me to decide what is a free update and what is paid DLC. I will allow others to make that call, but it's really difficult to argue that religion as it is currently in VII is anything but a boring slog.

 

[stealth_nsk]

No worries, it wasn't the tone that was dismissive.

I just really disagree here. We have religious themed wonders that deliver both relics and relic slots. In VII currently, we have only the Palace and the Temple buildings that can receive relic slots. In a lot of games, if you are pursuing the religious victory, this means that you have to go and settle new cities in order to reach the 12 displayed relics qualification to fulfill the culture path in Exploration. This is not cultural gameplay and puts a huge emphasis on expansion. Religious buildings could easily be added to provide happiness, culture, science (whatever yield you choose) in addition to relic slots.

It's not up to me to decide what is a free update and what is paid DLC. I will allow others to make that call, but it's really difficult to argue that religion as it is currently in VII is anything but a boring slog.

Yes, religious buildings with relic slots clearly could be added. And I agree about more focus on culture - we've discussed above how additional civics could help.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yes, religious buildings with relic slots clearly could be added. And I agree about more focus on culture - we've discussed above how additional civics could help.

I miss the Madrasa.

- And similar religious-specific buildings from Civs of yore.

Anybody else remember the special religious structures you could build in the city in which you founded your religion? That could be expanded to include every religion they offer, with both Relic slots and some slightly different bonus from the religion - so that which religion you choose actually makes more than a strictly cosmetic difference.

Another place to add religious buildings is Wonders. The fact that many are 'connected' to specific Civs somewhat detracts in that it gives potentially extra bonus to those Civs, but the majority of Wonders prior to trhe Industrial Era were religious-inspired:

Oracle - a shrine to Apollo (and several other Gods and Goddess earlier)
Colossus - a statue of Helios, the Sun God as a thank-you gift
Byrsa - a temple enclosure
Rila Monastery - already a Relic-holder
Borobudur - the largest Hindu temple in the world: enough said

And so on and on: every one of those could have a place for at least one Relic, and if anybody wants to go Age Progression, Wonders built in Antiquity might add strength/purpose to the Relics in them in Exploration.

I think, though, that massive changes to the Religious game need to wait for a specifically-themed DLC, because the effects are likely to be huge for balancing the Victory/Legacy progressions. That, if they are going to do it right, will require a lot of testing to find the right balance between relics, relic-holding structures, their effects on Religious spread and the consequences of that spread and effects on other Legacy paths.

 

[Taefin]

it's really difficult to argue that religion as it is currently in VII is anything but a boring slog.

I’d argue that it is boring, a bit of a slog but slightly less so than other civ-likes I’ve played, and interesting ONLY insofar as it is used to support other goals (a way to invest gold to get more science or culture), and rewards other actions (using a DL settlement as a hub to create missionaries for scouting and generating more resources, while also earning legacy points that support other goals and allow preserving these yields into modern).

My one game where religion was interesting was when I used it to convert a huge belt of tropical cities and more than double my science yield. I’d say I used 10 total missionaries to convert and maintain every settlement with tropical on my continent, worth ~200 science, through all of exploration. I think they average 450 gold each, so the gold->science conversion was just off the charts good. Not necessarily fun on its own, but fun because I was choosing how to best use my exploration age.

 

[queenpea]

I miss the Madrasa.

- And similar religious-specific buildings from Civs of yore.

Don't you know this is Civ 7?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

many beliefs .... require converting foreign settlements

I think this is the heart of the problem! Civ VI wasn't perfect but it did religion much better than VII with it being something you had to invest in to get benefits from but those were real benefits like food or combat strength etc.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think this is the heart of the problem! Civ VI wasn't perfect but it did religion much better than VII with it being something you had to invest in to get benefits from but those were real benefits like food or combat strength etc.

Why is this a problem? It's different, but it's much more dynamic, because everyone is focused on religious offense instead of defense.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Don't you know this is Civ 7?

A opposed to Civ VI, which had the Madrasa was a Civ-specific religious/other benefits structure, and Civ IV (I believe, it's been a while), in which you got to build a special building in your first religious city.

In fact, I find it very easy to remember that this is Civ 7 just by counting up the things that it does NOT allow me to do compared to previous Civ renditions.

Mind you, some of those are Good Things, like not having to engage in religious fantasy battles or micro-manage Workers, Rock Bands and other trivia.

But in this case, there are potential lessons to be learned from previous Civs about possible mechanics and ways to include Relics besides the limited possibilities Civ 7 provides.

 

[queenpea]

A opposed to Civ VI, which had the Madrasa was a Civ-specific religious/other benefits structure, and Civ IV (I believe, it's been a while), in which you got to build a special building in your first religious city.

In fact, I find it very easy to remember that this is Civ 7 just by counting up the things that it does NOT allow me to do compared to previous Civ renditions.

Mind you, some of those are Good Things, like not having to engage in religious fantasy battles or micro-manage Workers, Rock Bands and other trivia.

But in this case, there are potential lessons to be learned from previous Civs about possible mechanics and ways to include Relics besides the limited possibilities Civ 7 provides.

Haha yes, I was making a joke. I'm very supportive of your ideas and suggestions.

 

[queenpea]

Why is this a problem? It's different, but it's much more dynamic, because everyone is focused on religious offense instead of defense.

I really just have the opposite feeling towards religion in VII. "Dynamic" would be the last word I would choose to describe it. It's shallow, with a heavy focus on micro management (queue missionary, move missionary to rural tile, click convert, move missionary to urban tile, click convert, move and repeat). There's no flavor, no consequence, and once you have exhausted your goals (converting cities in tropical for science or collecting relics), you can really just completely forget about religion and move on with zero impact.

IMHO, it's the weakest aspect to Exploration, which is an otherwise fun Age to play.

 

[Leucarum]

I mean Religion was also bad in Civ6. Maybe we shouldn't get rose tinted glasses here.

I'd honestly say that religion is at its best in Civ7 since you can just mostly ignore whot has perpetually been a shallow, micromanagement nightmare.

...And I don't have, nor have I seen any good suggestions for how to make it interesting to play. I've seen plenty of ways to make it more close to history, but I don't yet see any which look like interesting gameplay. At this point, despite its historical centrality, I'd favour pushing religion to the background and making cultural victory in exploration revolve around something else.

 

[queenpea]

I mean Religion was also bad in Civ6. Maybe we shouldn't get rose tinted glasses here.

I'd honestly say that religion is at its best in Civ7 since you can just mostly ignore whot has perpetually been a shallow, micromanagement nightmare.

...And I don't have, nor have I seen any good suggestions for how to make it interesting to play. I've seen plenty of ways to make it more close to history, but I don't yet see any which look like interesting gameplay. At this point, despite its historical centrality, I'd favour pushing religion to the background and making cultural victory in exploration revolve around something else.

Ignoring religion in VII means ignoring the cultural path in Exploration. I would definitely advocate for a divorce of religion and the cultural path in Exploration.

I don't think anyone here is saying to revert back to VI.

 

[Leucarum]

Ignoring religion in VII means ignoring the cultural path in Exploration. I would definitely advocate for a divorce of religion and the cultural path in Exploration.

I don't think anyone here is saying to revert back to VI.

By ignoring I more meant picking the "convert capitals" or "convert city states" beliefs. Then you can just send a couple of missionaries to get all the relics you need and ignore religion for the rest of the game. You spend 30 seconds on religion gameplay and the rest is irrelevant.

I could have phrased that better. TBH I'd say maxing your culture path in exploration is as close to automatic as possible.

 

[queenpea]

By ignoring I more meant picking the "convert capitals" or "convert city states" beliefs. Then you can just send a couple of missionaries to get all the relics you need and ignore religion for the rest of the game. You spend 30 seconds on religion gameplay and the rest is irrelevant.

I could have phrased that better. TBH I'd say maxing your culture path in exploration is as close to automatic as possible.

Yeah, I get that. In my experience it's definitely more significant than thirty seconds (and can be quite annoying depending on what belief you have secured), but agreed that once your goal is complete, you can play as though religion never existed.

 

[Leucarum]

Yeah, I get that. In my experience it's definitely more significant than thirty seconds (and can be quite annoying depending on what belief you have secured), but agreed that once your goal is complete, you can play as though religion never existed.

To be fair, for millitary it matters. But usually I'll just buy a bunch of missionaries at my DL cities when I am ready to score it and do them all in one batch at the end of the age. Again it just feels more like "admin" than a game system...

...But I still prefer it to Civ6's micromanagement hell.

Overall, yes, organized religion was very central to everything in the time period, and especially difficult to disentangle from culture... But it just doesn't add anything to the game right now.

Personally I'd say this is the game period which spans the renaissance! Bring back great works of art, with some form of great person competition based on culture generation or other milestones! (Yes, religious inspiration, yadda yadda. Still a more interesting game system)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yeah, I get that. In my experience it's definitely more significant than thirty seconds (and can be quite annoying depending on what belief you have secured), but agreed that once your goal is complete, you can play as though religion never existed.

To be fair (or at least complete) this could be said about a whole bunch of Civ VII's Legacy/Victory mechanics. In the Exploration Age, once you have your 30 Treasure Fleet/Distant Land Resources complete, all the other Treasure Fleets are simply useless graphic clutter: they don't add anything to the Legacy path or bonus or next Age.

In that respect, 'Religion' is just part of the problem: on the one hand virtually all of the Cultural game in Exploration is wrapped around Religious Relics, on the other hand once you have enough cities converted and/or Relics stashed away it's all Ignorable.

And my own experience is that either you get all the Treasure Fleets needed in less than 50 turns or you don't get them at all, usually because the map gave you no access to more than 1 - 2 Resources before the Age was almost over, and likewise either convert everything in sight right away and discover that the AI does nothing about it, or spend the entire Age re-converting and tracking down Relics until you wish very hard for an Inquisition mechanic to slaughter the little furrin missionary $%#@^&.

A great deal of this is that the Legacy system, although I like the concept, is too Linear: there is, basically, one way to get each Legacy path completed in each Age, so that already (in my case, in just over 200 hours of play) the Ages are starting feel Boring: you get the Fleets started, you get the Relics gathered, you take X cities . . . Ho Hum.

The game is going to very badly need some Alternatives to the single Legacy paths to keep anybody's interest for long, IMHO. I'm compiling notes on possible alternatives/additions now, and will try to collect them into a coherent post of suggestions, but it's probably going to wind up being another Monster multi-post to cover all three Ages . . .

 

[queenpea]

To be fair (or at least complete) this could be said about a whole bunch of Civ VII's Legacy/Victory mechanics. In the Exploration Age, once you have your 30 Treasure Fleet/Distant Land Resources complete, all the other Treasure Fleets are simply useless graphic clutter: they don't add anything to the Legacy path or bonus or next Age.

In that respect, 'Religion' is just part of the problem: on the one hand virtually all of the Cultural game in Exploration is wrapped around Religious Relics, on the other hand once you have enough cities converted and/or Relics stashed away it's all Ignorable.

And my own experience is that either you get all the Treasure Fleets needed in less than 50 turns or you don't get them at all, usually because the map gave you no access to more than 1 - 2 Resources before the Age was almost over, and likewise either convert everything in sight right away and discover that the AI does nothing about it, or spend the entire Age re-converting and tracking down Relics until you wish very hard for an Inquisition mechanic to slaughter the little furrin missionary $%#@^&.

A great deal of this is that the Legacy system, although I like the concept, is too Linear: there is, basically, one way to get each Legacy path completed in each Age, so that already (in my case, in just over 200 hours of play) the Ages are starting feel Boring: you get the Fleets started, you get the Relics gathered, you take X cities . . . Ho Hum.

The game is going to very badly need some Alternatives to the single Legacy paths to keep anybody's interest for long, IMHO. I'm compiling notes on possible alternatives/additions now, and will try to collect them into a coherent post of suggestions, but it's probably going to wind up being another Monster multi-post to cover all three Ages . . .

The main difference with the treasure fleets is that the settlements carry over to the next age. So do the resources, which become factory resources, so you have a bit of an economic victory snowball going on there. This isn't the case with relics as they just disappear. And before someone comes at me, the spend of two cultural legacy points to get +2 culture per relic is a waste of those points when it's fairly easy to earn >1000 culture per turn in Modern.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Treasure fleets add gold. Relics add culture, plus they could be used in the next age if you pick corresponding bonus. Similarly you could get a lot of bonuses from converting foreign cities with right legacy bonus.

I think the most important thing here is that there's no middle ground in Civ7 religion. You either play it at minimum just to complete legacy path or play it to the full and use for legacy path bonuses in the next age.

 

[Krikkit1]

I think the problem is in Antiquity the Legacy paths are good In themselves even without Legacy points (Wonders, Settlements, Resources, Techs)
in Exploration...
Science:.. super yields are nice
Military: more land is nice
Economic... money is too easy from other means
Culture:... benefits of spread/Relics are too low.

If Relics gave Influence/ a % bonus to culture (with an increase in Civic costs)
If Treasure Fleets gave big Chunk of Gold +.... Influence/ a Lump sum of Happiness/Triggered a Celebration... maybe made a Local Copy of the Resource available for Trade or slotting as an imperial resource for 8 turns)
If another civs religion in one of your settlements meant they could propose Endeavors/Sanctions/Espionage/War Support with you more cheaply

All of those would give reasons to get the Fleets/spread Religion past when you hit the point.