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Changes to the Civics

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Star Trek Mod' started by Gelvan, Sep 8, 2008.

  1. Gelvan

    Gelvan Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    Messages:
    576
    Firstly: Thanks for this mod, it makes FF feel finalized. :thumbsup:

    I made some changes to the Civics, because I got a feeling that some of the just seem too good to start with them outright.

    I put some of them to the Value Techs, to make them more interesting, even if they are no prerequisite for other Techs. And to distinguish further.

    I'm sure you've planned to make some changes to them anyway, but I made it already so no harm in sharing them. And of course to discuss the changes.

    Changelog

    Exploration
    - Bureaucrazy
    - Charter
    Notes: The Federation (and the other Exp. Civ's) have to choose if they go for Economy or Starfleet. I put a +10% cost for distance to palace on Bureaucrazy, because imo it is just too good to start with, without a drawback.

    Warrior Code
    - Police State
    - Empire
    Notes: Again Warmongers have to choose if they want to build a fleet fast, but with higher costs, or if they want to make people fond of their strength. I changed 2 happy faces to 1 happy face per military unit on Empire. The idea is that you need a big fleet, or people think "Our Empire is weak".

    Isolationonism
    - Xenophopia (well that was easy :))
    - Evangelism
    Notes: I was tempted to remove the happiness modifier from the Barracks. Evanglism makes sense, because it removes the possibility of improving diplomacy if no other Value can spread there. And +2 Exp fit's the Romulan Empire quite well.

    Capitalism (Rules of Aquisition)
    - Mercantilism
    Notes: The Ferengi are traders. Therefore I removed the "no Foreign Trade routes" from Mercantilism. This makes Free Market a bit underpowered in comparison, so I made it +2 Trade routes, but with +1 unhealthy.

    Total Logic
    - Slavery
    Notes: if the Vulcan were in the game, it would make sense to make Pacifism a part of Total Logic, but the Borg seem not to fit the theme. Slavery fits Borg and Vulcan as well: "The Needs of the Many Must Outweigh the Needs of the Few or the One." Maybe it should be renamed... ;)

    Prophets
    - Serfdom
    Notes: This was a bit difficult because I don't know DS9 very well (so I should play the Scenario right? ;) ). I think it makes at least a bit sense: faster workers mean faster warp lines, and that can be translated in "wormhole technology". Which is THE domain of the Prophets, isn't it?

    Pah Wraits
    - Organized Doctrine
    Notes: I'd say the "evil" prophets should get a big bonus for a big minus. On the other hand, they did "build" some things on Bajor, so... But I really don't know, because this is the first time I ever heard of Pah Wraits. :)


    These changes should make some interesting descisions. I would recommend to enhace the cost for each starting tech, and remove them from being able to get in a wreckage, but that's up to you. The reason is, that they should not be researched or found before the game has "spread" the Value in the Capital, which is usually at turn 5-7. Still they are starting technologies, so maybe some of the Civics are nevertheless overpowered.

    To the other Civics:

    Universal Database
    - Representation
    - Idological Plurism
    Notes: I wanted to put them far away, maybe to the last techs, but then it would not make sense to adopt them at all, because they both enhance Science. But now Universal Database seems to be a bit overloaded with science enhancing things, therefore I would recommend to split this tech in two. Or the Civics should go somewhere else?

    Recreation Facilities
    - Pacifism
    Notes: The idea behing this is to create Planets like that holiday planet in TNG (can't remember the name) - at least lore wise. If people are able to hang around, they maybe get some thoughts about all that war stuff. But to know that we value peace and love also makes people very happy. I changed the civic to give +2 happy faces and +50% war weariness. Edit: maybe that makes it a bit useless?

    Hyper Subspace Communication
    - Collective (no change)
    - Universal Suffrage
    Notes: Collective makes "you may spend gold to finish production". Nothing else, so it is maybe not so strong, and could be switched somewhere else. On the other hand: in the end, you maybe want to build some things on all the newly conquered planets, or just finish your builder style empire. Universal Suffrage ist just too plain powerful imho, so I put it far away. Another idea was to nerf it and put it quite at the beginning, maybe even at the Prophets or IDIC.

    Subspace Radio
    - Free Speech
    Notes: Well it just fits.

    Replicators
    - Self Betterment
    Notes: not everything has to be changed, right? :p

    Enhanced Warp Field
    - State Property
    Notes: For this one I searched a tech, that combined Economic and Military strength. To make People give their belongings to the State, you have to show that you are a good leader (e.g. still be alive) and have the ability to go to planets that don't like the idea quickly. And mechanic wise it seems better to put such a powerful Civic far away in the tech tree.


    well, what do you think about it? :)

    [files attached later in this thread]
     
  2. Gelvan

    Gelvan Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    Messages:
    576
    Here is a changed Technologes file to use with the above.

    - All Value Tech's cost 210 so they need about 20 turns on small map with normal speed at Noble level. (The next technologies take only 10 turns).
    - They can't be found in Wreckages, so you can't found a Value that belongs to someone else, if his Civ is in the game.
    - Universal Database cost increased from 300 to 600. Takes longer but if you are first you will be quite fast after that. Also this gives the game hopefully a break before mightier ships arrive on the field. (due to it's prerequisite for Transwarp-Tech). I'm not sure though if the AI will be crippled by this change?
    - Pacifism is now much easier to get for Exploration and Warmonger Civ's than the other Civics (like Slavery).
     
  3. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    4,859
    Location:
    New York State
    I'll DEFINITELY have to look at adding this to the main mod. I'll probably make some tweaks though (probably not too many). I abstracted total logic to represent any religion that is based on following logic as an absolute, so it actually fits both the Vulcans and the Borg (being cybernetic and all).
     
  4. Gelvan

    Gelvan Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    Messages:
    576
    yeah true about total logic. :)

    I am thinking about switching some of the Civics, say to make Slavery and Collective in the same "row", so you have to decide either to go for Whipping or Buying. Then Collective as well as Slavery could be enabled later (maybe with some communication technology).

    I think the Technologies should be changed, so that Universal Database let's you switch in the Movies Era, while Subspace Radio and Integrated Deflectors are still TOS. That would make the Bajor Wonder a bit more frequently, even if they are not in the game. (I changed the wonder so it's only buildable with the holy city of the prophets).

    Would it make sense to make Prophets a prefered tech for religious leaders? I think the Pah Wraits could be made more interesting if they get a science bonus, but the organized doctrine is quite powerful, so maybe that's enough.

    I made a change to the factories (all of them) and the Research centers (all of them) so they cost now more (90 and 120), which makes it a tad more difficult to reach Universal Database. Still I think Libraries etc. are a bit to good. Maybe all "standard" buildings should be changed to +10%. They can be built on every planet so that still makes a bonus of +50% in most systems.

    In the beginning the AI is doing quite a good job, regarding research. He is not so good at defend for the first 30 turns or something. Maybe it would help to give the AI a defense unit in the beginning, so on higher difficulties the barbarian don't wipe them out.
     
  5. Gelvan

    Gelvan Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    Messages:
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    I did some playtesting that focused on research on normal speed, small map, noble difficulty. I think it is too fast. Therefore I increased the tech cost and in this setting it's like the following:

    Starter Techs (Values): 433 [wreckage: no]
    Poly, Type 1, Free market: 207 [wreckage: yes] TOS
    Cloaking: 367 [wreckage: yes?] TOS
    IDIC, Recreation: 309 [wreckage: yes] TOS
    Integrated, Subspace: 930 [wreckage: yes] TOS
    Long Range Scanner, Transporters: 1137 [wreckage: no] MOVIES
    Universal Data, Transwarp: 1209 [wreckage: no] MOVIES

    After that I multiplied every tech cost with 2 or 2.5.

    Now why? the reason is, that the more planets and star systems you get, the more beacons you produce and therefore the tech rate does increase quite fast. I don't want to research everything in 6 turns.

    I *think* it's better now, but it needs of course more tests. And maybe that's not very scenario compatible. But for a small map (which translates in a huge pangaea compared to normal civ) it seems right.

    here my file for the tech costs.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. vedli

    vedli Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    England
    Hey, I tried installing your tech changes but it didn't seem to work, I'm I suppose to delete Civ4CivicInfos.xml after making a copy? Because I didn't.

    About the Prophets and the Pah Wraiths. I am a massive DS9 fine so I can tell you everything you need to know about.

    As such a few suggestions. First I would move Organized Doctrine to the Prophets. My reason being that the Bajorians are dedicated to there faith and would show a great deal of zeal in carrying out "the will of the prophets" as such the 25% bonus to building from Organized Doctrine would suit this idea quite nicely.

    As for the Pah Wraiths well the only two civics that would fit them is either Slavery or Xenophobia (with a heavy learn towards Slavery). The reason being they are, without a doubt, true, unmitigated, evil. The Borg want assimilate the galaxy and the Dominion want to conquer it. The Pah Wraiths want to destroy it ("set the galaxy a flame").
    They have been shown to kill, maim and blind there followers if it helps them get ahead since Slavery involves "Sacrificing" population there seems to be little else that suits them. And come to think of it I can't think of any thing they have built. If you can tell me of something they have built It would be news to me.
    And FYI the leader of the "Cult of the Pah Wraiths" was Gul Dukat. If anyone should prefer them it's him. (this one of the reasons I would like to see Damar as another choice for leader of Cardiassia.)

    As for religious leaders the only one is Sharkar of Bajor (I think) and the prophets is already his preferred tech.

    In regards to Total logic, Well why not move Bureaucracy or Serfdom to total logic? I would think Serfdom would work with total logic, my reason being that a logical system, would no doubt be an efficient one, meaning faster workers. :)

    Anyway that's some of my thoughts. Again if you have any DS9 questions feel free to ask.
     
  7. Gelvan

    Gelvan Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    Messages:
    576
    Thanks a lot for your insights. I changed the Civics as you recommended:

    Organized Doctrin: Prophets
    Slavery: Pah Wraiths
    Bureaucrazy: Logic
    Serfdom: Logic

    plus
    Pacifism: back to standard
    Representation: Exploration

    This gives the Borg a tad of a better start thanks to bureaucrazy and it makes much sense flavourwise regarding fast improvement building (Unimatrix 1).


    For more expansive Technologies:

    Installation
    - Search folder //Sid Meier's Civ 4/BtS/mods/Star Trek/Assets/XML/Technologies
    - make a copy of the file Civ4TechInfos.xml
    - copy the file in the zip file Civ4Techinfos.zip in my last message in the folder above

    For changed Civics:

    Installation
    - Search folder //Sid Meier's Civ 4/BtS/mods/Star Trek/Assets/XML/Gameinfos
    - make a copy of the file Civ4CivicInfos.xml
    - copy the file in the zip file Civ4Civicinfos.zip below in the folder above
     

    Attached Files:

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