Changing Cannons from Units to Professions [IMPLEMENTED]

[raystuttgart]

I suspect we would have to add support for bombardment in the profession code in the dll.
However it's most likely something like adding an xml tag for it and then somewhere in the code add that it should check both unit and profession xml data rather than just unit data.

I think that is pretty much it considering the basics.

1) Adjustment of ProfessionInfos.xml plus reading the tags.
2) Basically everytime it checks if the "Unit can bombard" we would now also need to check if the "Profession can bombard".
--> UnitAIs themselves would not need further changes than already covered in 2)

However there is another aspect to PlayerAI.

3) We need to make sure that player equips those Cannons reasonably (not too many, not too few)
4) We need to check for potential side effects if PlayerAI cannot build Cannons anymore (e.g. in Balancing considering how it is using its money)

 

[devolution]

I suppose we'd need a bCanBombard tag in ProfessionInfos.xml. Alternatively we could just check for the unit being equipped with cannons but that would get a bit messy.
We'd also have to add the check for a bombard profession to CvUnit::canBombard and do some other minor adjustment as well. I think foresee much issues with regards to making this feature functional.
As for the AI understanding that it should build cannons instead of muskets, that is a different discussion. It is however on my list though.

 

[raystuttgart]

Seems to be accepted.
Poll is quite positive and no team member against it.

Very likely to be implemented in Release 2.8.
(Next bigger feature release.)

 

[Schmiddie]

Ok, this means a lot of graphics are required since we will need some for the normal version and some for the profession with expert - but no problem. I have them already...

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok, this means a lot of graphics are required since we will need some for the normal version...

Yes, we will need graphic for the "non-expert" - versions.
But it should mainly be recolouring slightly and animations should not be necessary to change.

... some for the profession with expert ...

For those we could reuse the ones for the Cannon Units.

- but no problem. I have them already...

That is what I almost suspected.

 

[devolution]

Wait a sec, we're keeping the existing non-profession units right ? We're just adding the artilleryman\bombardier profession ?

 

[raystuttgart]

Wait a sec, we're keeping the existing non-profession units right ? We're just adding the artilleryman\bombardier profession ?

Ahm, no. You kind of confuse me now.

The suggestion is to completely replace Cannon Units with Cannon Professions.
(And 3 Experts in total - 2 for Colonial Nation Cannon Professions and 1 for King Nation Cannon Professions).

We would however reuse some graphics. A few new ones would need to be created though.
(All other Units - e.g. Ships or Native Mercenaries - would not be touched by this.)

Basically every current Cannon-Type Unit will "simply" be transformed into a equivalent Profession.
(All of them will use the same Specialist "Experienced Cannoneer".)

So the only real difference is that you will no longer simply build Cannons like e.g. Ships but instead equip Cannons like e.g. Soliders.
(In my immersion cannons are just weapons operated by living humans.)

Why should we have both - Cannon Units and Cannon Professions?
That would be the worst solution of all for me - because completely inconsistent and still having WOI exploit of buying cheap military..

Please clarify what you mean.

 

[devolution]

What about the light artillery ? If we get rid of the distinction then artillery will be both city defenders and city attackers.
What about the European Line Infantry unit, it is not a profession (and also overpowered but that is another discussion)

 

[raystuttgart]

what about the light artillery ?

We will replace it with an equivalent Profession as well.
(It is also a Cannon Unit.)

If we get rid of the distinction then artillery will be both city defenders and city attackers.

No, there will be 2 different Cannon Professions - not only 1.

Light Artillery --> Garrison Artillery Profession (Possible with normal Colonist and Expert Light Cannoneer that has special Promotions)
Siege Artillery --> Siege Artillery Profession (Possible with normal Colonist or Expert Siege Cannoneer that has special Promotions)
Royal Artillery --> Siege Artillery Profession (but King's Expert Royal Siege Cannoneer has more powerful Promotions)

Summary:

Instead of 3 Cannon Unit Types (Light Artillery, Siege Artillery and Royal Artillery)
we will have 2 Professions (Garrison Artillery, Siege Artillery- with different Equipment requirements)
and 3 Experts (Expert Light Cannoneer, Expert Siege Cannoneer, Royal Siege Canonneer - with different Promotions)

That is already all.

UnitAIs can most likely be reused but might need to be slightly adapted.
The main problem however will be to adapt PlayerAI to equip enough of these Professions instead of building the Units.
(Buying should not be a problem since AI can still buy the Experts. Proven in use already.)

-----

Everything that is a "Cannon Type" of Unit and can be build will be transformed into an equivalent Profession 1:1. (With Expert)
The main reason to do this is to get away with "I can happily build my land military (during WOI)"

What about the European Line Infantry unit, ...

Not in this concept because not a Cannon.

Also it can not simply be built. It is just a rare Special Event Unit.
(I personally have no intentions att all to change any of the Special Event Units to Professions.)

We will not touch Ships or Wagon Trains or ... either.

------

@team:
Please let us clarify if it is ok or not for you or if there was a misunderstanding.
We need to do that before Schmiddie starts putting effort into collecting / preparing his old graphics.

 

[Schmiddie]

I absolutely agree and I assume we are only talking about the CANONS here - not about all other special units - the other will still be just units.

 

[devolution]

Ok, but let's find a a better name than "light cannon". It's interesting that we will have two distinctive expert units for these professions though.

How about "garrison cannon". The profession could require blades (or tools to load\maintain the cannon) and less cannons (as in the yield) than the siege variant to represent the lesser strength.

 

[Schmiddie]

Oh, did not notice that. We should just have one expert unit...

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok, but let's find a a better name than "light cannon".
How about "garrison cannon".

Sure.

It's interesting that we will have two distinctive expert units for these professions though.

We should just have one expert unit...

Having different Experts will be much easier for implementation and we can use all the default code (for Buying, LbD, REF, ...)
(But they can look almost the same if unequipped and simply have different name, different Default Promotions and different Default Profession.)

We need 2 Experts for Colonites for having both Professions (as Experts) appear in "Europe Buy Units" Pop up.
We can thus also use "LbD for military Units" for normal Colonists to become a special Expert by their Combat Experience.

We will als need 1 Expert for the King to properly spawn REF troops.

By doing so we will also be able to give the Experts different default Promotions. (That better fit the specific Professions.)
Every Unit (here our Experts) can have separate "Default Professions" and "Default Promotions".

And we can make it a little easier for AI to "choose Best Profession".

The profession could require blades (or tools to load\maintain the cannon) and less cannons (as in the yield) than the siege variant to represent the lesser strength.

That is exactly the idea.
Each of these Professions will have different Yield requirements.

 

[Commander Bello]

How about "garrison cannon". The profession could require blades (or tools to load\maintain the cannon) and less cannons (as in the yield) than the siege variant to represent the lesser strength.

That sounds frighteningly like one artillerist could drop his equipment to let another one form a stronger cannon unit.
But you cannot make one 12pounder become 2 sixpounders nor the other way around.

 

[raystuttgart]

That sounds frighteningly like one artillerist could drop his equipment to let another one form a stronger cannon unit.

Yes, it will be the same as with all Professions, Units can change their Profession if equipment is available.
Siege Artillery will of course need more equipment (e.g. Cannons) than Garrison Artillery.

But you cannot make one 12pounder become 2 sixpounders nor the other way around.

We are fully aware that not every game mechanic in Civ4Col is 100% realistic.
It is simply a game and needs to simplify game mechanics for good game play.

The current solution of "Building / Hurrying" is not 100% realistic either because it does not need Humans to operate the Cannons.
And is also offers an exploit during WOI to easily restock your army by "Hurrying / Building" of Cannons if you have enough money.

But again, this concept is accepted now - arguments and explanations have all been given.
(We asked community. They voted for it and gave their feedback for more than 3 weeks.)

Implementation can only still be stopped by a team member veto or if we run into a technical problem we cannot solve.
Currently however there is no team member veto and no technical problem that we are afraid of.

 

[Commander Bello]

Yes, it will be the same as with all Professions, Units can change their Profession if equipment is available.

The problem is that artillery equipment is not comparable to the other equipment.

A dragoon and a cuirassier both are riding on the same kind of horses.
A militia unit and a line infantery both are using the same kind of muskets.

Artillery however is different due to the equipment used. As I said in the previous posting, a 12pounder is significantly different from a sixpounder.

You guys seem to be planning to have even three different types of units for the various professions. But the most obvious difference you are willing to neglect? Sounds strange to me.

And I am not against making a unit become a unit/profession combination. It would make much sense.
But it should be done in a meaningful manner which doesn't rise confusion and doubt during playing the game.

 

[raystuttgart]

The problem is that artillery equipment is not comparable to the other equipment.

We know that and it was considered.
But we need to make compromises / simplifications for gameplay, game mechanic consistence, balance, efforts, stability, performance ...

Just wait for the result and have a little confidence.

 

[Commander Bello]

But we need to make compromises / simplifications for gameplay, game mechanic consistence, balance, efforts, stability, performance ...

Well, I strongly suggest reconsidering your current proposals as to me it seems you haven't gained much.

Instead of 3 Cannon Unit Types (Light Artillery, Siege Artillery and Royal Artillery)
we will have 2 Professions (Garrison Artillery, Siege Artillery- with different Equipment requirements)
and 3 Experts (Expert Light Cannoneer, Expert Siege Cannoneer, Royal Siege Canonneer - with different Promotions)

Instead of 3 units you now have 3 units and 2 professions, which doesn't seem to fit into "efforts, performance", let alone "simplifications".

Edit: Effectively, you even have 4 units now. The three different cannoneers and everybody else. However, this is completely ahistorical, as artillery units were very specialised units and at least their commanders needed quite a bit of education and experience.
"Commoners" would have been hardly able to fire even a single shot, let alone bringing it into the target.
In turn that means for historical credibility any non-cannoneer unit would have to be a very bad artillery man - something which you will not easily achieve given the current profession/promotion system.
Edit end

In addition under your current proposals you will run into the problem that the human player will be able to switch to the most suitable unit/profession combination at will (which of course isn't anything bad, but here means completely changing the respective "unit's" nature). The AI however is likely to be at a disadvantage again.
This doesn't seem to fit into "gameplay, game mechanic consistence".

Once again, I am not objecting the idea as such. I just see a lot of problems coming with the current proposals.

Just wait for the result and have a little confidence

This frankly is a non-argument. It literally means "Don't point out potential problems, it will be good... sometime"

 

[raystuttgart]

I just see a lot of problems coming with the current proposals.

Yes, and I tried to tell you already, that you don't need to worry about technical problems.
You don't have to spend any effort yourself.

This frankly is a non-argument.

Why should we need to be argumenting any longer?
We already explained everything needed, team and community have voted and you already told your opinion as well.

We will just give it a try and see how it turns out.

There is no reason to get upset simply because modders are trying a new feature or a change in game concepts.
As long as community majority and team agree to it, eveything is ok.

 

[cammcken]

I always assumed cannons weren't professions because their primary cost is equipment and their manpower cost is much lower than what an infantry unit would use. How do you plan on dealing with this if we're stuck with one unit = one pop?

I suppose you could boost the value of a cannon unit so that they are worth several units of infantry, probably by adding a bombard system.